SPEECH 


OF 

HIRAM    KE  T  CHUM,  ESQ. 


BEFORE  A. 


COMMITTEE  OF  THE  SENATE  OF  THE  STATE  OF  NEW-YORK, 


IN  RELATION  TO  THE 


PUBLIC  SCHOOLS  OF  THE   CITY   OF  NEW-YORK, 


AND  IN  REPLY  TO  THE 


REPORT  OF  THE  HON.  JOHN  C.  SPENCER, 

SUPERINTENDENT  OF  COMMON  SCHOOLS, 


ON  THE  SAME  SUBJECT. 


NEW- YORK. 


Avery  Architectural  and  Fine  Arts  Library 
Gift  of  Seymour  B.  Durst  Old  York  Library 


SPEECH 


In  Sekate  :  Albany,  May  1841. 
COMMON  SCHOOL  MONIES. 
Speech  of  Hiram  Ketchum,  Esq.,  before  the  com- 
mittee on  Literature,  (composed  of  Senators  Root, 
Hunter  and  Verplanck,)  in  behalf  of  the  Public  School 
Society  of  the  City  of  New-York,  relative  to  the  plan 
and  report  of  the  Secretary  of  State -respecting  the 
distributions  of  the  Common  School  Monies  in  that 
city. 

Mr.  Ketchum  rose  and  addressed  the  committee 
as  follows  : 

Mr.  Chairman  and  Gentlemen  of  the  Committee  : 
As  a  member  of  the  Board  of  Public  Schools  of  the 
cay  of  New-York,  and  in  behalf  of  the  Public  School 
Sociery,  1  now  appear  here ;  and  I  will,  by  leave  of 
the  committee,  make  a  few  remarks  upon  the  report 
which  has  been  referted  to  it.  The  subject  discussed 
in  this  report  is  one  of  great  interest  to  the  city  of 
New- York.  It  affects  the  cause  of  education,  and 
especially  of  the  education  of  the  poor;  and  as  the 
Public  School  Society  has  long  had  the  principal 
charge  of  that  matter,  and  as  they  believe  that  the 
statements,  the  inferences,  and  the  reasoning  con- 
tained in  this  report  of  the  Secretary  of  State,  are 
calculated  to  affect  injuriously  that  cause,  they  have 
prayed  that  their  views  miyht  be  laid  before  the 
.Senate,  aad  sent  in  their  memorial  to  that  effect. 
The  Senate  having  appointed  a  committee  to  hear 
the  Public  School  Society,  I  now  appear  to  make 
such  remarks  as  occur  to  me — premising  that,  pro- 
bably, at  no  very  late  day,  the  Society,  by  way  of 
memorial  or  remonstrance,  will  lay  their  objections 
to  this  report  before  the  Senate  and  the  public,  in  a 
more  permanent  form,  than  they  will  now  be  pre- 
sented to  the  committee. 

In  this  report,  drawn  up  with  great  ability,  as  every 
paper  and  document  emanating  from  the  Secretary 
of  this  State  is  drawn  up;  in  this  report,  I  say,  thet& 
is  contained  a  brief  history  of  the  legislation  upon  the 
subject  of  the  distribution  of  the  school  monies  in 
the  ciiy  of  New-York.  As  this  passage  occupies  but 
a  short  space,  I  will  take  leave  to  read  it.  At  page  2, 
the  Secretary  says  : 

''It  is  essential  to  the  proper  consideration  of  the 
subject  to  understand  the  history  of  the  legislation 
that  has  been  had  in  reference  to  it ;  and  particularly 
in  relation  to  the  Public  School  Society  of  the  city 
of  New -York. 

"The  first  law  relating  to  that  portion  of  the  school 
monies  apportioned  to  and  raised  in  the  city  of  New- 
York,  was  passed  in  1813,  and  will  be  found  in  the 
first  volume  of  the  Revised  Laws  of  that  year,  at 
page  267.  It  directed  those  monies  to  be  distributed 
"  to  the  trustees  of  the  Free  School  Society,  the 
Orphan  Asylum  Society,  the  Economical  School, 
the  African  Free  School,  and  the  trustees  of  such  in- 
corporated religious  societies  in  said  city,  as  now 
support,  or  hereafter  shall  establish  chanty  schools 
within  the  said  cily,  who  may  apply  for  the  same." 
The  act  directed  that  the  sum  thus  distributed  should 
be  applied  to  the  payment  of  the  wages  of  the 


teachers,  and  to  no  other  purposes  whatever.  As 
these  were  all  charity  schools,  it  is  obvious  that  the 
Legislature  intended  that  the  school  monies  appor- 
tioned to  the  city,  as  well  as  those  raised  by  tax, 
should  be  consecrated  to  the  education  exclusively 
of  the  indigent.  Under  this  act,  apportionments  were 
annually  made  to  the  schools  enumerated,  arftd  to 
those  established  by  some  eight  or  ten  of  the  different 
religious  denominations,  until  the  year  1324.  By 
chapter  276  of  the  Session  Laws  of  that  year,  the 
j  above  mentioned  act  was  repealed,  and  the  common 
|  council  of  the  city  was  authorized  to  designate  "  the 
\  societies  or  schools  which  should  be  entitled  to  re- 
ceive a  share  of  the  school  monies,  and  prescribe  the 
i  rules  and  restrictions,  under  which  such  monies  shall 
1  be  received  by  such  societies  or  schools  respectively." 
j  Pursuant  to  this  act,  the  common  council  have  de- 
1  signated  the  schools  of  the  Public  School  Society, 
!  and  six  or  eight  other  schools,  to  which  all  the  pub- 
I  lie  monies  have,  since  1826,  been  distributed,  with 
j  some  variations  in  different  years,  as  to  the  other 
!  schools.    From  the  annual  reports  and  other  docu- 
|  ments,  a  statement  has  been  compiled,  from  which 
'  it  appears  that  more  than  one  million  of  dollars  has 
been  paid  to  the  trustees  of  the  society,  under  its 
;  different  names,  sioce  1813,  out  of  the  public  monies 
|  appropriated  by  the  State,  and  raised  by  tax  on  the 
;  city  for  school  purposes,  and  that  S125,243  57,  have 
1  been  paid  to  the  other  schools  before  mentioned. 

"The  Public  School  Society  was  originally  incor- 
porated in  1805,  by  chapter  108  of  the  laws  of  that 
session,  which  is  entitled  "An  act  to  incorporate  the 
society  instituted  in  the  city  of  New- York,  for  the 
establishment  of  a  free  school  for  the  education  of 
poor  children,  who  do  not  belong  to,  or  are  not  pro- 
vided for  by  any  religious  society."  In  1808  its  name 
was  changed  to  "  The  Free  School  Society  of  New- 
York  ;"  and  its  powers  were  extended  "  to  all  chil- 
dren who  are  the  proper  subjects  of  a  gratuitous  edu- 
cation." By  chapter  25  of  the  laws  of  1826,  its  name 
was  changed  to  "The  Public  Scbool  Society  of  New- 
York  ;"  and  the  trustees  were  authorized  to  provide 
for  the  education  of  all  children  of  New- York,  not 
otherwise  provided  for,  "  whether  such  children  be 
or  be  not  the  proper  subjects  of  gratuitous  education ; 
and  to  require  from  those  attending  the  schools,  a 
moderate  compensation ;  but  no  child  to  be  refused 
admission  on  account  of  inability  to  pay." 

This  brief  history  of  the  distribution  of  the  school 
monies  in  the  city  of  New- York  (continued  Mr.  K.,) 
is  accurate  so  far  as  it  goes;  but  the  Secretary  has 
left  out  some  particulars  which  we  deem  of  some 
importance  in  this  discussion. 

In  the  first  place  : — these  monies  were  originally 
appropriated  to  the  payment  of  teachers,  and  to  no 
other  purpose;  but  after  the  Lancasterian  system  of 
education  had  been  introduced  into  the  city  of  New- 
York  and  the  Free  School  Society  had  been  esta- 
blished, it  was  found  that,  under  the  monitorial  sys-  . 
tern,  so  great  was  the  number  of  children  attending 
these  schools,  that  a  larger  amount  of  money  was 


4 


drawn  from  the  public  school  fund  than  was  neces- 
sary to  pay  the  teachers;  and  in  the  year  1817  the 
surplus  was  permitted  by  the  Legislature  to  be  ap- 
propriated by  the  Public  School  Society  for  the  pur- 
chase of  books,  and  stationary,  and  other  incidental 
expenses  attending  the  education  of  children  ;  so 
that,  from  thai  time,  the  Public  School  Society  drew 
its  quota,  and  applied  it  not  only  to  the  payment  of 
teachers,  but  also  to  those  other  purposes  which  I 
have  named.  This  privilege  was  at  that  time  enjoyed 
exclusively  by  the  Public  School  Society  ;  and  I 
suppose  that  the  principle  upon  which  the  exclusive 
privilege  was  granted,  was  that  the  Free  School  So- 
ciety—for so  it  was  then  called — was  incorporated 
exclusively  for  the  purposes  of  education,  and  of 
educating  poor  children,  and  there  was,  therefore,  in 
the  constitution  of  the  Society  itself ;  in  the  act  of  its 
incorporation,  no  inducement  or  motive  for  mal-ap- 
plication  or  mis-appropriation  of  the  funds  ;  and 
hence  it  was,  I  presume,  that  the  Legislature  in  its 
wisdom  saw  no  danger  in  trusting  whatever  funds 
were  drawn  by  that  institution,  to  be  applied  not 
only  to  the  payment  of  teachers,  but  for  the  general 
purposes  of  education. 

This,  then,  is  one  omission  which  the  Secretary  has 
made. 

The  second  omision  is,  that  the  Secretary  has  not 
attempted  to  account  (as  I  think,  he  should  have 
done)  for  the  reason  why  the  public  school  monies 
in  the  city  of  New- York  were  differently  applied 
from  those  in  the  country.  In  the  country,  as  the 
Committee  well  know,  the  amount,  as  in  the  city,  re- 
ceived from  the  common  school  fund  is  paid  over 
to  the  proper  officer  in  the  county.  The  county  has 
to  raise  by  tax  an  amount  equivalent  to  the  sum  thus 
received,  and  then  it  passes  into  the  hands  of  Com- 
missioners chosen  by  the  people  in  their  respective 
Districts.  In  the  city  of  New- York,  however,  no 
legislation  of  that  description  was  provided.  The 
money  was  paid  over  to  the  Chamberlain,  and  the 
Chamberlain  was  directed  to  pay  it  to  certain  desig- 
nated societies — of  which  the  School  Society  was 
one,  and  all  religious  societies  maintaining  charity 
schools  ;  the  Orphan  Asylum  and  some  others  being 
specified. 

Now,  it  seems  to  me  that  in  order  to  have  pre- 
sented the  subject  fairly  and  fully,  the  Secretary 
should  have  accounted  for  this  difference.  I  will  at- 
tempt to  account  for  it  now.  In  the  country,  that 
portion  of  the  common  school  fund  which  goes  to 
each  county,  is  paid  as  a  sort  of  premium  or  advance 
to  induce  the  establishment  and  maintenance  of 
common  schools.  The  state  says  to  the  respective 
counties,  we  will  give  you  so  much  ;  and  this  is  given 
as  an  advance,  or  premium,  or  bonus,  for  the  estab- 
lishment and  maintenance  of  these  Common  Schools 
throughout  the  country.  In  the  country,  the  schools 
so  established  and  so  participating  in  this  fund,  are 
the  schools  in  which  the  children  of  the  county — the 
children  of  the  poor  of  the  county— as  well  as  the 
offspring  of  persons  of  property,  generally  receive 
their  elementary  education.  The  tax-paying  part  of 
the  community — those  who  are  called  upon  to  raise 
this  equivalent  tax,  (in  the  first  place,  in  order  to  re- 
ceive the  fund  from  the  State,  and  in  the  second 
place  to  provide  for  the  erection  of  school  houses  in 
the  respective  school  districts) — this  tax-paying  part 
of  the  community,  I  say,  have  for  the  most"  part, 
their  own  sons  and  daughters  educated  in  these  very 
schools  which  are  established  and  maintained  by  this 
money.  Therefore,  it  will  be  plainly  seen  that  this 
tax-paying  community  which  and  which  alone  elects 
the  Commissioners  in  towns — which  alone  elects  the 
Trustees  in  districts,  have  a  direct  personal  interest 
in  electing  suitable  persons  ;  because  those  very  per- 
sons are  to  take  charge  of  the  education  of  their 


ehildren.  There  is  probably  very  little  danger  that 
any  thing  like  party  politics  will  mingle  up  in  the 
election  ot  these  officers — because  these  very  officers 
are  to  perform  a  most  important  and  interesting  duty 
to  the  children  of  the  very  men  who  are  called  upon 
to  pay  the  tax.  Not  so  in  the  city  of  New-York. — 
There,  by  the  law  enacted  in  the  year  1813,  this  fund 
was  originally  expressly  appropriated  to  the  educa- 
tion of  the  indigent — of  the  poor— of  the  children  of 
those  who  do  not  pay  tax — to  those  who  are  the 
proper  subjects  of  gratuitous  education;  and  none  but 
charity  schools,  none  but  the  children  of  the  poor, 
none  but  the  proper  subjects  of  a  gratuitous  educa- 
tion were  to  be  benefitted  at  all  by  this  portion  of  the 
fund  so  received  from  the  State,  and  by  the  equiva- 
lent portion  so  raised  by  tax.  To  this  the  tax-pay- 
ers in  the  city  of  New- York  consented ;  because  if 
the  first  objection  to  such  a  law  had  been  made  on 
the  part  of  that  city,  it  would  not  have  passed  in  this 
form.  This  was  undoubtedly  a  matter  made  to  fall 
in  or  acquiesce  with  the  wishes  of  the  delegation  from 
the  city  of  New-York  ;  because  the  Legislature  never 
would  have  undertaken,  without  such  acquiescence, 
to  have  made  that  distinction  ;  therefore,  I  say,  that 
the  citizens  of  New- York,  through  their  representa- 
tives here,  consented  that  the  bread  which  the  State 
had  provided  lor  their  own  children  should  be  given 
to  the  poor ;  they  voluntarily  parted  with  it,  and  gave 
it  to  the  indigent  among  them. 

Thus,  then,  we  see  that  the  fund  was  given  to  the 
indigent  by  those  who  spoke  for  the  people  of  the 
city  of  New-York  in  the  Legislature ;  and  i  have  but 
this  hour  heard  that  a  man  whose  name  is  dear  to  us 
all — De  Witt  Clinton — was  the  man  who  princi- 
pally represented  the  wishes  of  city  of  New-York  at 
that  time.  It  was  De  Witt  Clinton  that  spoke  in 
behalf  of  the  city  of  New-York — who  made  this 
provision. 

And  inasmuch  as  this  was  a  gratuity,  a  charity  for 
the  poor  people  of  that  city,  she  chose  that  the  mo- 
ney should  pass  through  the  hands  of  certain  almo- 
ners of  her  own  choice.  She  chose  that  the  Free 
School  Society,  the  Orphan  Asylum  Socety,  the  re- 
ligious bodies  which  maintained  schools  there,  at  that 
time,  should  be  her  almoners.  Suppose,  at  that  day,  it 
had  been  proposed,  as  it  is  now  proposed.by  the  Secre- 
tary, that  the  people  should  choose  commissioners — 
that  the  tax-paying  portion  of  this  people(beeause  none 
others  then  were,  or  now  are,  entitled  to  voteon  these 
matters  in  thecountry)  shouldchoose commissioners, 
there  was  lacking  that  powerful  motive  which  would 
influence  freeholders,  and  the  tax-paying  portion  of 
the  community,  to  elect  proper  men  lor  the  perform- 
ance of  this  duty — the  motive  which  was  to  be  found 
in  the  fact,  that  their  own  children  were  to  be  edu- 
cated by  these  very  persons.  This  probably  may 
account  very  sensibly  for  the  fact  that  in  the  city  of 
New-York  the  portion  of  the  school  fund  allotted  to 
her  was  to  be  distributed  by  these  almoners  of  her 
charity  whom  her  representatives  thought  proper  to 
designate.  Now,  I  ask,  was  there  any  thing  incon- 
sistent with  sound  principle  in  this?  Is  there  any 
thing  in  it  which  violates  the  principle  of  the  largest 
liberty,  and  the  purest  democracy,  of  which  we  hear 
something  in  this  Report  1  In  the  city  of  New-York, 
as  I  shall  have  occasion  to  show  by-and-bye — ana 
more  or  less  I  suppose  it  is  so  in  all  the  states  of 
Christendom — there  are  voluntary  associations — 
charitable  associations — associations  composed  of 
men,  incorporated  or  otherwise,  who  are  willing 
to  proffer  their  services;  to  feed  the  hungry;  to 
clothe  the  naked ;  to  visit  the  destitute,  and  to  see  to 
the  application  of  funds  set  apart  for  their  relief.  Such 
men  are  always  to  be  found  in  large  cities;  men  of 
fortune,  men  of  leisure,  men  of  benevolence,  who  are 
willing  to  associate  together  for  benevolent  objects, 


5 


and  who  are  usually  made  the  almoners  of  the  cha- 
rity of  others.  Such  is  the  case  in  the  city  of  New- 
York.  That  is  the  usual  mode,  (as  I  shall  have  oc- 
casion to  show,  though  it  can  scarcely  be  necessary 
to  do  it  before  this  intelligent  Committee,)  that  is  the 
usual  mode  of  distributing  funds  there,  and  expe- 
rience has  demonstrated  that  it  has  been  attended 
with  good  and  wholesome  results.  The  city  of  New- 
York  chose,  therefore,  to  adopt  this  mode  of  distri- 
buting her  monies;  and  this  probably  is  one  of  the 
reasons  why  this  dist  uction  between  the  city  and 
the  country  was  incorporated  in  the  act  of  1813. 
Another  reason  undoubtedly  was.  that  in  a  city  such 
as  New- York,  there  is  more  or  less  political  excite- 
ment mingling  in  every  public  measure.  All  who 
have  lived  there  knows  that,  especially  within  a  few 
years  past,  we  have  had  a  degree  of  political  ex- 
citement which  has  been^very  inconvenient;  and 
that  at  all  times,  in  a  close  and  dense  population, 
more  of  that  excitement  and  heat  are  felt  than  pre- 
vails amongst  the  more  sparse  population  of  the 
country,  and  probably,  possibly,  it  entered  into  the 
consideration  of  the  wise  men  (for  if  they  were  like 
him  whom  I  have  named,  they  deserve  that  appella- 
tion in  its  highest  sense)  in  the  legislature  of  that 
day,  that,  for  the  purpose  of  keeping  this  matter  out 
of  the  vortex  of  party  and  political  excitement,  this 
money  should  be  paid  over  to,  and  distributed  under, 
the  superintendence  of  agents  consisting  of  these  re- 
spective societies.  This,  then,  it  seems  to  me,  is  an- 
other omission  in  this  Report  of  the  Secretary.  I 
speak  with  deference.  And  the  third  omission  is, 
that  the  Secretary  has  failed  to  tell  us  why  the  act  of 
1824  was  passed,  which  gives  the  money  provided  by 
the  Slate,  to  the  Common  Council  of  the  city  of 
New- York,  to  be  distributed  by  them  as  they  might 
think  proper.   I  will  supply  the  omission. 

Anterior  to  the  year  1824,  the  legislature  desig- 
nated the  institutions  and  schools  which  should 
participate  in  this  fund.  These  were  the  Free  School 
Society,  and  religious  societies  supporting  charity 
sahools,  and  some  others.  About  the  year  1822,  (I 
would  premise,  however,  that  the  religious  societies, 
and  all  except  the  Public  School  Society,  were  re- 
stricted in  the  use  of  these  funds  to  the  payment  of 
teachers,)  but  about  the  year  1822,  a  society  called 
the  Bethel  Church  of  the  City  of  New-York,  ob- 
tained a  privilege  similar  to  that  which  had  been 
granted  to  the  Public  School  Society,  and  applied  the 
surplus,  after  the  payment  of  teachers,  to  the  pur- 
chase of  stationery  and  the  erection  of  buildings. 
The  operation  of  that  plan  was  this: — inasmuch  as 
that  society,  in  common  with  all  others,  drew  per 
head  for  the  number  of  children  taught  in  the  schools, 
or  rather  for  the  number  of  children  placed  on  the  re- 
gister of  the  schools,  to  be  taught,  this  Bethel 
Church,  under  the  direction  of  Johnson  Chase  at 
that  time  their  pastor,  gave  small  presents  and  re- 
wards, to  induce  children  to  come  in.  They  came 
in,  and  their  names  were  put  on  the  register ;  and 
when  the  yearly  account  came  to  be  made  out,  they 
drew  for  the  number  of  children  on  the  register,  and 
the  consequence  was,  that  a  large  portion  of  the  fund 
was  appropriated  to  the  erection  of  buildings  belong- 
ing to  the  Bethel  Church,  thus  using  the  common 
school  fund  of  the  city  of  New-York,  and  the  equi- 
valent tax  paid  there,  to  the  erection  of  religious  tem- 
ples to  be  used  by  a  particular  denomination  of  chris- 
tians. Before  this  law  of  1822  was  passed,  and  while 
the  sum  received  was  specifically  appropriated  to  the 
payment  of  teachers,  the  Bethel  Church,  or  rather 
their  pastor,  evaded  the  law  in  the  following  manner : 
The  teacher  was  employed  at  a  large  salary  ;  he  re- 
ceived the  salary  with  the  understanding  that  while 
he  received  it  in  one  hand,  with  the  other  he  should 
make  over  a  portion  to  the  church;  so  that  the 


church  received,  after  all,  a  portion  of  the  funds  paid 
to  teachers. 

This  alarmed  the  Public  School  Society,  and  the 
community  of  the  city  of  New- York,  and  the  So- 
ciety and  the  Corporation  immediately  sent  a  memo- 
rial up  here  praying  that  the  provision  of  the  law 
giving  peculiar  privilege  to  the  Bethel  Baptist  Church 
might  be  repealed.  Hence  ensued  a  contest  which 
lasted  two  or  three  years  before  the  legislature — in 
which  the  people  of  the  city  of  New-York  took  great 
interest — and  which  was  a  very  exciting  contest  even 
here,  in  the  city  of  Albany.  Here  was  seen  to  be 
an  attempt  made  to  take  away  the  public  school 
nnd  of  the  city  of  New-York  for  the  purposes  of  the 
Bethel  Church  ;  and  the  city  authorities,  and  the  as- 
sociations participating  in  the  fund,  all  became 
alarmed. 

We  came  here  and  discussed  this  matter;  and  our 
proposition  was  then,  to  restrict  these  religious  soci- 
eties to  the  poor  children  of  parents  statedly  wor- 
shipping with  those  societies.  This  was  thought  to 
be  a  fair  proposal.  The  subject  was  discussed  on 
various  successive  occasions,  until  at  lengih  it  was 
seen,  by  those  who  examined  it,  that  this  matter  of 
paying  the  school  fund  to  religious  societies,  where- 
by the  doctrines  of  particular  religious  sects  should 
be  sustained  and  supported  by  this  fund,  was  a  vio- 
lation of  a  great  fundamental  principle.  It  was  the 
union  of  Church  and  Stale  which  the  laws  and  the 
institutions  of  this  country  abhor.  It  was  taking  the 
funds  of  the  people — the  tax  received  oui  of  the 
pockets  of  the  people — and  applying  it  to  the  esta- 
blishment and  promotion  of  religious  societies. 
Well ; — although  it  is  a  good  thing  to  have  these  re- 
ligious societies,  yet  it  was  seen  that  a  vital  principle 
was  here  violated.  Hence,  after  many  discussions 
in  the  Assembly  chamber,  (discussions  at  which  all 
the  members  were  invited  to  attend — and  almost  all 
of  them  did  attend— for  we  had  generally  a  quorum, 
although  ii  was  before  a  committee  night  after  night,) 
—  the  committee  of  the  Assembly  at  length  made  a 
report  favorable  to  the  prayer  of  the  memorial ;  but 
suggesting  in  that  very  report  whether  even  so  much 
as  was  granted  in  the  proposition  referred  to  was  not 
a  violation  of  sound  principle  ;  whether  in  fact  reli- 
gious societies  ought  to  participate  in  the  enjoyment 
of  the  fund  at  all,  because,  by  such  participation,  the 
Jew  might  be  made  to  support  the  doctrine  of  the 
Christian  ;  and,  vice  versa,  the  Christian  that  of  the 
Jew;  the  Catholic  of  the  Protestant ;  the  Protestant 
of  the  Catholic,  and  so  on.  After  much  discussion, — 
after  the  subject  had  been  agitated  before  the  Legis- 
lature week  after  week;— (as  a  member  of  the  Pub- 
lic School  Society,  I  attended  here  six  weeks,) — 
after  a  great  contest,  in  which  we  had  to  contend 
against  the  Bethel  Church,  the  Episcopal  Church, 
the  Dutch  Church,  the  Methodist  Church,  and  the 
Roman  Catholic  Church,  the  bill  came  from  the 
other  House  to  the  Senate;  and  there  was  discussed 
before  a  committee  by  the  gentleman  who  is  now 
Bishop  of  the  State,  Doctor  Onderdonk — on  the  one 
side — and  a  member  of  the  Board  of  Public  Schools 
on  the  other.  This  was  at  the  adjourned  session  of 
the  legislature,^  the  fall  of  1824,  the  session  having 
been  continued  over  from  the  spring  to  the  tall.  In 
this  fall  session  of  1824,  I  say,  it  was  that  this  dis- 
cussion was  had ;  the  committee  of  the  Senate  seeing 
that  the  subject  was  involved  in  difficulties,  and  that 
it  required  a  knowledge  of  local  feelings  which  they 
did  not,  and  could  not  possess  here  in  the  Legisla- 
ture, inserted  an  amendment  in  the  bill  of  the  House, 
declaring  that  they  would  refer  the  matter  to  the 
city  of  New- York,  and  that  the  corporation  should 
dispose  of  the  school  fand  apportioned  to  that  city, 
as  they  might  please.  And  here  I  ask  leave  to  say 
to  the  committee,  that  this  power  never  had  been 


6 


asked  for  by  the  corporation  ;  that  it  never  had  been 
asked  for  by  the  Public  School  Society ;  but  that 
the  committee  of  the  Senate,  (and  a  most  intelligent 
committee  it  was.  I  do  not  recollect  all  the  names, 
at  the  moment,  but  I  know  that  Mr.  Suydam  was 
one,)— that  committee  decided  that  they  were  so  ig- 
norant of  the  peculiarities  of  the  New- York  popula- 
tion, with  reference  to  this  question,  that  they  were 
incompetent  to  decide  it  rightly ;  and  they,  therefore, 
of  their  own  motion,  incorporated  this  section  in  the 
act,  giving  power  to  the  corporation  of  the  city  of 
New-York,  to  dispose  of  this  fund  as  they  thought 
best.  Thu3  the  power  was  granted.  Now,  ihe  pro- 
position of  the  secretary  in  this  report  is,  that  the 
Legislature  shall  resume  this  power ;  that  that  which 
the  Legislature  of  1824  thought  proper  to  give,  of 
their  own  motion,  as  I  have  said— for  in  behalf  of 
the  Public  School  Society  no  such  grant  was  asked  ; 
and  I  felt  great  hesitation  on  the  part  of  the  Com- 
mon Council,  whose  memorial  1  bore,  whether  we 
should  accept  the  grant — whether  it  would  not  be 
better  to  leave  the  disposition  of  the  school  fund  here. 
We  were  fearful  of  local  difficulty.  We  did  not 
want  the  power  vested  in  the  corporation;  the  cor- 
poration did  not  want  it ;  and  I  never  gave  my  con- 
sent to  it  until  after  consultation  with  the  President 
of  the  Free  School  Society  at  tbat  time,  De  Witt 
Clinton,  then  residing  here — and  who  said  it  was 
more  proper  that  the  corporation  should  exercise  this 
power.  It  was  then  accepted.  Now,  I  maintain 
that  if  the  proposition  of  the  secretary,  that  the  Le- 
gislature should  resume  this  power,  is  to  be  adopt- 
ed, it  is  incumbent  on  him  to  show  that  the  power 
thus  delegated  to  the  corporation,  has  been  abused 
I  say  it  is  incumbent  upon  him  to  prove  this  fact. 
Here  is  the  Legislature  delegating  a  power— granting 
it  to  agents  selected  by  the  people;  composed  of  the 
Common  Council  of  the  city  of  New- York.  Before 
this  grant,  the  representatives  of  the  people  of  the 
city  of  New- York  in  this-  Legislature^  unquestion- 
ably had  the  sole  power  of  indicating  the  course  of 
legislation  as  to  the  disposition  of  the  fund  appor- 
tioned to  that  city.  The  Legislature  never  would 
have  undertaken  to  say,  that  these  funds  should  be 
used  in  one  way  in  the  city  of  New-York,  and  in 
another  way  in  the  country,  except  so  far  as  they 
were  authorized  to  say  it  by  the  consent  of  members 
representing  the  city  and  country  respectively. 

This  is  according  to  the  usual  course  of  legislation ; 
local  in  i  ts  operation.  Well,  then,  said  the  Committee 
of  the  Senate  in  1824,  instead  of  having  this  matter 
indicated  to  us  by  twelve  or  thirteen  gentlemen  who 
represent  the  city  of  New- York  in  the  Assembly, 
and  one  or  two  that  may  represent  them  in  this 
body,  we  will  say  to  the  Common  Council  of  that 
city,  selected  by  the  people— the  chosen  agents  of 
the  people— that  they  may  distribute  this  fund  as 
they  think  proper,  and  the  question  now  is,  have 
these  agents  abused  that  power  so  as  to  make  it 
requisite  that  the  Legislature  should  resume  it  ?  Sir, 
I  submit,  with  great  deference,  whether  in  this  mat- 
ter, the  onus  of  proof  does  not  lie  upon  those  who 
ask  the  Legislature  to  resume  it?  I  submit  if  the 
burthen  of  showing  that  there  has  been  an  abuse  of 
power— that  the  agent  has  been  an  unfaithful  agent, 
does  not  devolve  upon  those  who  desire  to  take  the 
power  away?  Now,  has  it  been  abused?  I  ask, 
has  the  corporation  abused  the  power,  thus  volun- 
tarily, without  any  request  on  their  part,  granted  to 
them?  That  is  a  question  which  1  now  propose  to 
discuss. 

Immediately  after  the  passage  of  this  act,  or,  as 
soon  as  in  the  course  of  public  business  it  could  be 
attended  to,  namely,  on  the  eleventh  of  April,  1825, 
(for  it  was  anterior  to  that,  that  the  Committee  was 
appointed,)  this  matter  was  taken  up  by  the  Com- 


mon Council  of  the  city  of  New-York,  it  was  re- 
ferred by  them  to  the  law  committee,  and  this  is  the 
preamble  to  the  report  made  on  the  day  above  men- 
tioned : 

"The  committee  on  laws  to  whom  were  referred 
the  4th  section  of  the  act  of  the  Legislature  of  this 
state,  relating  to  Common  Schools  in  the  city  of 
New-York,  passed  the  19th  November,  1824 ;  the 
memorials  of  the  trustees  of  the  Charity  School 
attached  to  the  Reformed  Protestant  Dutch  Church 
of  the  city  of  New- York— of  the  trustees  of  tie 
First  Protestant  Episcopal  Charity  School  in  the 
city  of  New-York,  and  of  the  trustees  of  the  Metho- 
dist Episcopal  Church,  praying  respectively  for  a 
participation  in  the  Common  School  fund— and  also 
the  report  of  a  committee  of  the  trustees  of  the 
Free  School  Society,  on  the  distribution  of  the  said 
fund,  proposing  a  change  in  the  constitution  of  that 
society,  so  as  to  admit  children  of  all  classes  to 
their  schools,  for  a  compensation  not  exceeding  fifty 
cents  per  quarter,  with  power  to  remit  in-  proper 
cases,  Report." 

The  Committee  consisted  of  Samuel  Cowdrey, 
Elisha  W.  King,  and  Thomas  Bolton,  Esquires. 

They  patiently  heard  all  parties  (continued  Mr.  K.) 
1  believe  the  hearing  occupied  one  or  two  evenings. 
The  Methodists  were  represented  ;  the  Dutch  were 
represented;  the  Episcopalians  were  represented; 
and  the  Public  School  Board  was  represented.  The 
whole  matter  was  fully  and  fraukly  discussed  ;  and- 
this  principle,  whether  or  not  religious  societies  ought 
to  participate  in  this  fund  was  fully  gone  into;  and 
so  far  as  the  churches  were  represented,  and  so  far 
as  my  learned  associate  was  concerned,  (the  Hon. 
Peter  A.  Jay,)  these  various  questions  were  dis- 
cussed with  great  ability. 

The  report  of  the  Law  Committee  is  long ;  it  seta 
forth  the  arguments  on  both  sides,  and,  the  conclu- 
sion, contains  the  following  passage  : — "In  the  per- 
formance of  this  duty,  they  have  felt  all  the  import- 
ance and  responsibility  of  the  task  assigned  to  them, 
and  while  they  would  willingly  have  retired  from  the 
appointment;  and  do  each  individually  wish  that 
the  Legislature  had  passed  the  necessary  law  on  this 
subject,  on  the  recent  application  to  them  lor  that 
purpose,  yet  your  committee  cannot  permit  them- 
selves to  hesitate  or  falter  in  the  course  of  public 
duty,  when  that  course  is  plainly  manifest  to  their 
understandings.  Your  committee  will  not  conceal, 
either  their  own  private  and  personal  wishes,  at  the 
commencement  of  their  duties,  that  the  well-organ- 
ized churches  and  religious  societies  in  our  city, 
might  be  permitted  to  continue  in  the  reception  of  a 
part  of  this  fund  as  heretofore.  But  the  weight  of 
the  argument  as  urged  before  them,  and  which  they 
have  endeavored  to  condense  in  this  report,  and  the 
established  constitutional  and  political  doctrines 
which  have  a  bearing  on  this  question,  and  the  habits 
and  modes  of  thinking  of  the  constituents  at  large 
of  this  Board,  require,  in  the  opinion  of  your  com- 
mittee, that  the  Common  School  fund  should  be 
distributed  for  civil  purposes  only,  as  contradis- 
tinguished from  those  of  a  religious  or  sectarian  de- 
scription." 

This  report  was  adopted  by  the  Common  Council 
with  entire  unanimity,  it  is  believed. 

That  conclusion  was  ratified  by  their  constituents ; 
and  I  believe  that  every  one  of  the  religious  societies,, 
or  nearly  so,  excepting  the  Roman  Catholics,  ac- 
quiesced in  that  decision.  But  that  society  year 
after  year  has  come  before  the  Common  Council  and 
renewed  their  request  for  a  separate  portion  of  the 
school  fund.  With  the  best  feelings  for  the  appli- 
cants, in  a  spirit  of  kindness  ;  with  every  disposition 
to  do  whatever  could  be  done  for  them,  year  after 
year,  and  without  respect  to  rjolitics,. whether  the 


7 


one  party  was  in  the  ascendant,  or  the  other  party 
was  in  the  ascendant,  the  Common  Council  have, 
with  almost  entire  unanimity,  disallowed  that  re- 
quest ;  and  I  believe  that  never  in  either  Board,  since 
the  division  of  that  body  into  two  Boards,  has  there 
been  but  one  dissenting  voice  raised  against  the 
ratification  of  that  decision.  Now,  if  the  committee 
please — who  have  complained'?  The  Roman  Catho- 
lics. Our  fellow-citizens,  the  Roman  Catholics,  are 
as  much  entitled  to  be  heard  there  and  here  as  any 
other  citizens  ;  for,  when  acting  in  a  political  capa- 
city, we  know  no  difference  of  religion.  The  request 
which  was  made  and  urged  by  ihem  conjoined  with 
many  powerful  Protestant  sects  and  denominations 
of  christians,  and  which  was  refused  to  them  jointly, 
has  been  over  and  over  again  refused  to  them  sepa- 
rately. 

No  disrespect  was  intended  then.  The  Common 
Council,  and  every  person  engaged  in  the  discussion 
of  the  question  on  behalf  of  the  Common  School 
Society,  took  great  care  to  say,  "  we  do  not  reject 
you  because  you  are  Roman  Catholics  f1  and  as 
evidence  of  this  truth,  we  give  you  the  fact  that  we 
have  rejected  similar  applications  from  powerful 
Protestants ; — but  we  reject  your  request  because 
we  believe  that  a  sound  general  principle  will  not 
allow  xt§  to  grant  it. 

I  say  that  the  Corporation  has  been  desirous,  so 
far  as  that  body  possibly  could,  so  far  as  they  felt 
themselves  at  liberty,  consistently  with  the  main- 
tenance of  a  sound  general  principle,  to  accommo- 
date these  parties.  They  have  granted  a  privilege 
out  of  this  fund  to  the  Roman  Catholic  denomina- 
tion, which  has  not  been  granted  to  any  other. 
The  Sisters  of  Charity,  so  called,  under  direction  of 
the  Roman  Catholic  Church,  and  connected  with  it, 
(I  believe  I  am  right— if  not  I  should  be  happy  to  be 
corrected,)  established  a  most  benevolent  institution 
in  the  city  of  New-York,  called  the  Orphan's'  Asy- 
lum,—the  Roman  Catholic  Orphan's  Asylum.  They 
took  into  this  institution  poor  and  destitute  orphans. 
They  fed  them  and  clothed  them  most  meritorious- 
ly,—and  they  thus  relieved  the  City  of  New- York 
of  the  maintenance  of  many  who  would  otherwise, 
probably,  have  been  a  charge  UpoiKit.  After  long 
discussion,  and  with  some  hesitancy,  yet  overcome 
by  the  desire  to  oblige,  and  aware  of  the  limitation 
arising  from  the  very  nature  of  that  institution,  the 
Corporation  did  permit  the  Catholic  Orphan  Asylum 
to  receive  money  from  this  fund ;  and  during  the  last 
year,  it  received  some  §1462  fox  the  education  of 
about  one  hundred  and  sixty-five  children,— in  com- 
mon with  the  institution  for  tht  blind,  and  the  deaf 
and  the  dumb,  and  those  other  benevolent  and  Chris- 
tian institutions  which  are  altogether  of  a  Catholic 
character  in  the  most  comprehensive  acceptation  of 
that  term,— as  they  are  under  no  sectarian  influence 
or  government.  Thus  thisrSociety,  under  the  direction 
of  ihe  Sisters  of  Charity, — ladies  devoied  to  the 
Roman  Catholic  Church,  who  are  themselves  Ro-. 
man  Catholics,  and  given  up  to  the  service  of  that 
Church,— this  Society,  I  say,  has  been  permitted  to 
draw  this  sum  of  S1462  in  one  year.  But  when  the 
question  came,  "  Shall  their  schools  be  permitted  to 
draw  from  the  fund  ?"  the  Corporation  had  to  say, 
and  they  have  said,  over  and  over  again,  though 
most  reluctantly,  we  cannot  grant  you  that.  Upon 
the  last  application  made  for  this  purpose,  the  subject 
underwent  thorough  and  prolonged  discussion  before 
the  Board  of  Aldermen, and  the  argument  wasconduc- 
ted,  on  the  side  of  the  Roman  Catholics  with  signal 
ability  by  the  Right  Reverend  Bishop  Hughes  of  that 
Church.  The  hall  of  the  Common  Council  w-as 
crowded  to  overflowing;  the  avenues  were  crowded, 
tnd  erowded  I  believe  I  may  say,  without  any  inten- 


tion of  saying  what  is  erroneous,  by  persons  belong* 
ingto  that  denomination. 

The  subject,  I  repeat,  enderwenta  very  full  and  free 
discussion ;  and,  after  that  had  terminated,  the  Board 
of  Aldermen  gravely  considered  and  discussed  the 
subject;  and  at  length,  after  some  delay,  came  to 
the  conclusion  that  they  would  go  and  visit  the 
schools.    Some  of  the  members  of  the  Board  of 
Public  Schools,  feeling  sensibly  alive  on  the  subject, 
expressed  to  me  an  apprehension  that  this  was  a 
mere  evasion,  and  they  feared  that  the  question  had 
now  become  mingled  with  politics.    But,  I  said, 
wait,  gentlemen ;  let  them  go  and  see  your  schools, 
— it  is  a  natural  desire,  they  ought  to  go.   It  is  a 
great  and  delicate  question,  and  they  ought  to  be 
acquainted  with  it  in  all  its  details.   They  went  and 
visited  the  Public  Schools,  and  the  Roman  Catholic 
Schools,  and  they  incorporated  the  result  of  thei 
deliberations  in  a  report  which  I  have  before  me,  and 
from  which  I  shall  quote  by  and  by.    It  is  drawn 
up  with  great  ability,  and  the  decision  was,  with  but 
one  dissenting  voice,  that  the  prayer  of  the  petition 
should  be  rejected ;  and  it  was  rejected.    Who,  then, 
complain  of  the  operation  of  this  system  1    Our  fel- 
low citizens,  the  Roman  Catholics.    Failing  to  ac- 
complish their  purpose  through  the  Common  Coun- 
cil of  the  City  of  New-York,  they  come  and  ask  it 
here.    Failing  in  their  application  to  a  body  of  repre- 
sentatives to  whom  they  have  applied  year  after 
j  year,  and  who  represent  a  population  in  which  is  in- 
termingled a  greater  mass  of  Roman  Catholic  voters 
j  than  in  any  other  district  of  the  State  of  New- York 
j  —failing  to  get  from  the  hands  of  a  body  thus  con- 
i  stituted,  the  redress  for  the  grievance  which  they 
j  complained  of,  they  come  here  and  ask  it  of  you. 
j  I  say  they  come  here,  because  I  will  presently  show 
j  you  from  their  memorials,  that  none  but  they  come 
I  here. 

J  Now,  I  beg  leave  again  to  refer  to  the  report  of 
the  Secretary,  he  says : 

''The  memorials  presented  at  the  present  session 
represent  that  the  legislative  enactments  on  the  sub- 
ject of  public  instruction  in  the  city  of  New-York, 
require  a  fundamental  alteration  to  bring  the  bene- 
fits of  the  common  school  education  within  the  reach 
I  of  all  classes  of  the  population  ;  that  the  original  in- 
i  tent  of  those  enactments  was  to  enable  every  school 
which  should  comply  with  the  law,  to  share  in  the 
!  common  school  fund  ;  that  this  design  has  been  de- 
j  feated  by  the  construction  put  upon  the  statutes  by 
'  the  common  council  of  the  city,  in  designating  the 
Public  School  Society  to  receive  nearly  the  whole 
amount  of  that  fund  belonging  to  the  city  ;  that  this 
society  being  a  corporation,  has  acquired  the  entire 
control  of  the  system  of  public  education ;  that  the 
tax-payers  who  Contribute  to  the  fund,  have  no  voice 
in  the  selection  of  those  who  administer  the  sys- 
tem, or  control  over  the  application  of  the  public 
moneys." 

That  is  to  say,  (continued  Mr.  K.,)  that  at  the  last 
session,  memorials  were  presented  by  the  Roman 
Catholics,  as  such.    The  present,  we  are  left  to  infer, 
are  presented  by  citizens  generally,  not  as  Roman 
Catholics.    Let  us  see  how  the  truth  of  the  matter 
j  stands.    Here  is  the  first  memorial : — 
I     "  To  the  Horn  Legislature  of  the  State  of  New- 
I  York  :— The  memorial  of  the  undersigned,  residents 
1  of  the  city  of  New-York,  respectfully  showeth, — 
j  That  your  memorialists  being  members  of  the  Ca- 
tholic Church,  and  connected  with  the  several  Ca- 
j  thohc  congregations  in  the  city  of  New- York,  would 
'  respectfully  represent  to  your  Hon.  body,"  &c. 

This,  (continued  Mr.  K.,)  is  from  the  first  memo- 
'  rial  presented  by  them  as  Catholics.    It  was  pre- 
sented in  the  session  of  1840;  and  referred  to  the 
Hon.  Secretary  last  year.    He  did  not  think  proper 


8 


to  make  a  report  upon. that;  but  then  comes  a' 
second  memorial  from  citizens  generally,  and  on 
that  he  makes  a  report.    The  second  is  a  memorial 
presented  the  twenty-second  of  February,  1841.  It 
says: — 

"That  your  memori  lists  are  deeply  interested  in 
extending  the  advantages  of  education  to  every  child 
in  the  commonwealth,  regarding  it  as  the  best  means 
ot  perpetuating  tue  blessings  ot  our  republican  insti- 
tutions, anil  of  correciing  those  evils  in  society 
which  are  beyond  the  sphere  of  legislation."  "  Ii  is 
alleged  by  thousands  of  our  populaiion,  that  their 
conscientious  scruples  have  been  disregarded  in  the 
formation  of  the  system  of  instruction  adopted  by 
the  Public  School  Society.  The  confidence  of  this 
class  of  our  citizens  has  been  entirely  withdrawn 
from  the  Institution,  and  they  complain  of  the  seve- 
nty of  the  oppression  which  compels  ttie  n  to  submit 
to  the  decision  and  government  of  agents  irresponsi- 
ble to  the  public,  and  in  wnose  appointment  the 
electors  are  not  permuted  to  participate,"  &c. 

Among  the  first  signatures  to  this  memorial,  re- 
marked Mr.  K.,  are  those  of  Joseph  O'Connor, 
James  B.  O'Donnell,  Patrick  Leach,  and  others. 
I  never  saw  this  memorial  until  this  morning,  but  I 
perceive  one  name  attached  to  it,  as  a  sort  of  family 
name;  Patrick  Farrell — three  times  in  succes-  i 
sion — and  what  is  very  singular,  the  hand- writing 
seems  to  be  very  much  alike.  Be  that  as  it  may,  1 
am  satisfied,  from  what  I  have  seen,  that  this  is  as 
much  a  memorial  from  Roman  Catholics  as  the 
other  was.  The  secretary  in  his  report,  in  the  pas- 
sate  which  I  have  read,  admits  that  the  first  memo- 
rial came  in  a  shape  not  calculated,  probably,  to  be  | 
very  impressive.    He  says, — 

"  At  the  last  session,  memorials  of  a  similar  cha- 
racter from  a  large  number  of  Roman  Catholics,  cit- 
izens of  New- York,  were  referred  to  the  undersigned, 
upon  which  he  was  unable  during  that  session  to  re- 
port. Although  these  petitioners  have  the  same 
equal  and  common  rights  with  all  other  citizens  to 
submit  their  gnavances  to  the  Legislature,  and  ask 
for  redress,  yet  the  circumstance  of  presenting  them- 
selves  in  a  character  of  a  religious  denomination,  is, 
ia  itself,  unfavorable  to  that  impartial  consideration 
of  the  subject  which  its  importance  demands." 

Probably,  (continued  Mr.  K.,)  that  circumstance 
was  discovered  by  the  secretary's  sagacity,  between 
1640  and  1841 ;  and  this  second  memorial,  therefore,  \ 
is  from  citizens  of  New- York  ;  but  I  believe  I  may  j 
safely  affirm  that,  if  not  exclusively,  it  is  almost  al- 
together signed  by  Roman  Catholics.  As  the  secre- 
tary justly  remarks,  however,  they  hare  a  right  to 
apply  here ;  they  have  a  right  to  ask  the  Legislature 
to  overrule  the  decision  of  the  corporation,  although 
it  may  be  supposed  that  in  that  corporation  they 
would  have  as  fair  a  chance  of  being  heard,  and  of 
having  the  merits  of  the  controversy  rightly  adjudi- 
cated, as  here,  still  they  have  the  right  to  come. 
Now  what  do  they  complain  of?  One  of  their  com- 
plaints is  that  the  people  are  not  represented  in  this 
Public  School  Society  ;  that  here  is  an  agency  used 
for  a  great  public  purpose  which  the  people  do  not 
directly  choose;  and  they  complain  of  the  Public 
School  Society  being  a  close  corporation. 

1  suppose  that  if  the  Corporation  had  granted  the 
prayer  of  their  memorial, — to  allow  their  societies, 
that  is  to  say,  Saint  Patrick's  church,  and  all  such 
churches  as  belong  to  the  Roman  Catholic  denomi- 
nation in  the  city  of  New- York  to  participate  in  this 
fund,— I  suppose  they  would  not  have  seen  precisely 
that  such  great  evils  and  dangers  to  liberty  were  to 
be  apprehended  from  the  distribution  of  the  funds  to 
these  churches  and  the  Public  School  Society.  1 
think  it  fair  to  conjecture  that  if  their  corporations, 
be  they  close  or  be  they  open,  could  have  participa- 


ted in  that  fund,  we  should  not  have  heard  any  thing 

ot  their  extreme  regard  for  the  liberties  of  the  people. 
But  no  maiter  whether  we  should  or  should  not, 
they  have  aright  to  be  heard  whatever  their  motives 
may  be;  no  matter  what  might  have  deterred  them 
from  coming  here,  they  have  a  right  to  be  heard, 
and  their  arguments  must  be  met  and  answered  here, 
or  else  ttiey  must  receive  the  action  of  the  legislature 
in  their  favor.  All  thai  1  admit.  Bui  what  is  their 
complaint?  As  wil  appear  by  these  memorials  and 
from  the  summary  contained  in  the  report  ot  the 
Secretary,  they  complain  that  this  money  is  paid  to 
a  close  corporation, — that  the  religious  scruples  o;  a 
larne  portion  oi  our  tellow  citizens  are  violated  by 
this  distribution  of  funds. 

Now,  I  wish  to  call  the  attention  of  the  Commit- 
tee to  the  fact  now  to  be  staled  ; — there  is  no  com- 
plaint in  these  memorials,  hur  will  you  hear  any 
from  any  source,  that  the  Puimc  School  Society 
does  noi  furiiis  to  ah  the  children  who  attend  their 
schools  a  good  literary  education  ;  there  is  no  com- 
plaint that  in  these  schools,  children  arc  noi  tau-ht 
to  read,  write,  and  cypher  ;  that  they  are  not  taught 
the  elements  of  geography,  astronomy,  an  i  ot  Eng- 
lish Grammar  as  well  as  they  could  be  taught.  There 
is,  I  say,  no  complaint  ol  thai  description  ;  and, 
with  in*  exception  of  complaints  about  tue  tenden- 
cies of  the  institution,  there  are  no  complaints 
against  its  actual  operation  ;  but  the  complaint  is 
that  some  of  the  citizens  cannot  from  conscientious 
scruples,  send  iheir  children  lo  these  schools.  Now, 
I  invite  the  particular  aitention  of  the  Committee  to 
this,  which  1  deem  most  important — that  whatever 
may  be  said  of  the  tendencies  of  these  institutions, 
whatever  may  be  said  of  the  evil  of  the  general 
principle  contained  in  the  alleged  fact  that  these 
agents  are  not  chosen  directly  by  the  people 
nor  responsible  to  t.  era;  yet  in  the  long  lapse 
of  thirty-five  years  of  the  operation  of  this  So- 
ciety, and  from  the  year  1813  to  the  present 
time,  uunng  which  these  Common  School  mo- 
neys have   been  received,  there  is  no  complaint 

THAT  THEY    HAVE   EVER    FAILED   TO   GIVE    A  GOOD 

education.  There  is  no  complaint  that  the  system 
has  so  far  operated  injuriously,  excepting  that  such 
is  the  course  of  religious  education,  or  more  properly 
speaking,  the  want  of  rel  gious  education,  that  the 
Roman  Catholic  cannot  conscientiously  send  their 
children  to  our  schools.  But  they  do  object  that 
they  cannot  send  their  children  to  these  schools, — 
that  those  children,  many  of  them  eminently  the 
subjects  of  a  gratuitous  education,  cannot  partake  of 
the  benefits  of  the  fund  on  account  of  conscientious 
scrupled. 

Now,  this  is  the  very  point  which,  year  after  year, 
has  been  discussed  before  the  Common  Council, 
and  which,  year  after  year,  has  been  decided  by  that 
body.  What  is  it?  The  Roman  Catholics  com- 
plain, in  the  first  place,  that  they  cannot  conscien- 
tiously send  their  children  to  the  Public  Schools,  be- 
cause we  do  not  give  religious  instruction  in  a  defi- 
nite form,  and  of  a  decided  and  definite  character. 
They  complain,  in  the  second  place,  that  the  school 
books  in  common  use  in  the  Society,  contain  passa- 
ges reflecting  upon  the  Roman  Catholic  Church. 
And  they  complain,  in  the  third  place,  that  we  use 
the  Bible  without  note  or  comment,  that  the  school 
is  opened  in  the  morning  by  calling  the  children  to 
order  and  reading  a  chapter  in  the  Bible, — our  com- 
mon version.  These  are  the  three  grounds  on  which 
they  base  their  conscientious  scruples.  Now,  I  pro- 
pose most  respectfully  to  consider  them.  In  the 
first  place,  our  books  contain  occasional  passages 
reflecting  on  the  Roman  Catholics.  It  is  true  that 
in  our  ordinary  school  books,  the  most  approved  of 
the  day,  there  is  an  occasional  passage  winch  may 


9 


be  considered  as  reflecting  injuriously  on  the  Roman 
Catholic  Church.  We  have  all  read,  I  suppose,  as 
children,  and  I  do  not  know  but  that  this  description 
may  be  one  of  those  contained  in  these  books,  of 
the  martyrdom  of  John  Rogers,  in  the  reign  of 
Queen  Mary.  That  reflects  on  the  Roman  Catholic 
Church  ;  and  there  is  an  occasional  passage  which 
speaks  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Church  as  Protestant 
divines,  essayists,  and  orators,  sometimes  allow 
themselves  to  speak  of  that  church.  The  Public 
School  Society  have  offered,  if  the  Catholics  will 
point  out  these  offensive  passages,  to  erase  them  all 
from  the  books.  They  have  said  to  the  Bishop  of 
that  church,  and  to  a  committee  of  that  church, 
"  we  can  find  passages  enough  of  good  English  for 
our  reading  books  without  these; — and  if  you  will 
have  the  goodness  to  take  these  books  and  point  out 
these  offensive  passages,  we  pledge  ourselves  to  have 
them  erased.?3 

Now,  all  this  matter  was  gone  into  by  the  intelli- 
gent committee  of  the  Board  of  Aldermen  to  whose 
action  1  have  referred, — and  I  have  their  report  be- 
fore me.  They  called  for  a,  distinct  and  definite 
proposition  from  the  Common  School  Society  as  to 
what  they  would  do.  I  will  read  a  few  passages 
from  the  report  : 

Proposition  on  behalf  of  the  school  society. 

"  In  compliance  with  the  request  of  the  Commit- 
tee of  the  Board  of  Aldermen,  the  undersignod  Com- 
mittee of  the  New- York  Public  School  Society, 
submit  the  following  propositions  as  a  basis  of  a 
compromise  with  their  Roman  Catholic  fellow  citi- 
zens on  the  subject  of  the  Public  Schools;  which 
propositions  they  are  willing  to  support  before  the 
trustees  of  the  Society,  and  which  they  believe  will 
be  sanctioned  by  that  Board. 

The  trustees  of  the  New- York  Public  School  So- 
ciety will  remove  from  theclass-booksin  the  schools, 
all  matters  which  may  be  pointed  out  as  offensive  to 
their  Roman  Cathohc  fellow  citizens,  should  any 
thing  objectionable  yet  remain  in  them. 

They  will  also  exclude  from  the  school  libraries, 
(the  use  of  which  is  permitted  to  the  pupils,  but  not 
required  of  them,)  every  work  written  with  a  view 
to  prejudice  the  mind  of  the  reader  against  the  tenets 
or  practices  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Church,  or  the 
general  tendency  of  which  is  to  produce  the  same 
effect. 

They  will  receive  and  examine  any  books  which 
may  be  recommended  for  the  use  of  the  schools; 
and  should  such  books  be  adapted  to  their  system  of 
instruction,  and  void  of  any  matter  offensive  to  other 
denominations,  they  shall  be  introduced  so  soon  as 
opportunity  may  be  afforded  by  a  call  for  new 
books. 

Any  suggestions  in  reference  to  alterations  in  the 
plan  of  instruction,  or  course  of  studies,  which  may 
be  offered,  shall  receive  prompt  consideratioa-f  and 
if  not  inconsistent  with  the  general  system  of  in- 
struction, now  prevailing  in  the  schools,  nor  with  the 
conscientious  rights  of  other  denominations,  they 
shall  be  adopted. 

The  building  situated  in  Mulberry- street,  now  oc- 
cupied by  Roman  Catholic  schools,  shall,  if  required 
for  the  use  of  the  Public  School  Society,  be  purcha- 
sed or  hired,  on  equitable  terms,  by  the  trustees, 
should  such  an  arrangement  be  desired. 

Evers  effort  will  be  made  by  the  trustees  of  the 
Public  School  Society,  to  prevent  any  occurrence  in 
the  schools  which  might  be  calculated  to  wound  the 
feelings  of  Roman  Catholic  children,  or  to  impair 
their  confidence  in,  or  diminish  their  respect  for  the 
religion  of  their  parents. 

Anxious  to  keep  open  every  avenue  to  such  an  ar- 
rangement as  will  lead  to  a  general  attendance  of 
the  Roman  Catholic  children  at  the  public  schools, 


I  and  fully  aware  that  some  things  may  have  escaped 

their  observation  which  might  be  modified  without 
violation  of  the  conscientious  rights  of  others,  the 
I  undersigned  wish  it  to  be  distinctly  understood,  that 
!  in  offering  the  foregoing  propositions,  as  the  basis  of 
an  arrangement,  it  is  not  intended  to  exclude  other 
propositions  which  the  Roman  Catholics  may  make, 
provided  they  do  not  interlere  with  the  principles  by 
which  the  trustees  feel  themselves  bound." 

This  portion  of  the  report,  (continued  Mr.  K.,)  as 
will  be  seen,  has  reference  to  theseottensive  passages. 
Now,  every  body  will  say  that  is  a  fair  offer — we 
will  strike  them  out.    But,  gentlemen  of  the  com- 
mittee, 1  submit  whether  here,  in  this  country,  we 
must  not  in  matters  of  conflicting  opinions,  give  and 
take  a  little.    I  have  no  doubt  thati  can  find  some- 
thing in  any  public  school  book,  of  much  length, 
j  and  containing  much  variety  of  matter,  reflecting 
j  upon  the  Methodists — upon  the  heated  zeal,  proba- 
bly, of  John  Wesley  and  his  followers — reflecting 
!  upon  the  Episcopalians,  the  Baptists,  and  Presby- 
|  tenans.    Occasional  sentences  will  find  their  way 
|  into  public  discourses,  which,  if  viewed  critically, 
ana  regarded  in  a  captious  spirit,  rather  reflect  upon 
tiie  doctrines  of  all  those  churches. 

Now  1  suDmit,  with  great  deference  to  the  com- 
mittee, whether  this  is  a  lair  subject  for  conscientious 
scruples  ?  As  I  have  had  occasion  to  Glustrate  here- 
tofore, we  find  something  in  relation  to  politics,  too, 
about  which  we  may  disagree.  There  are  some 
very  elegant  passages  from  Thos.  Jefferson's  works 
which  have  found  tiieir  way  into  our  public  school 
books.  Some  man,  imbued  with  strong  prejudices 
against  Thos.  Jefferson,  may  say,  1  cannot  go  Thos. 
Jefferson;  my  children  shall  never  be  instructed  to 
read  what  Thos.  Jefferson  has  said.  On  the  other 
hand,  there  are  many  passages  from  the  speeches  of 
Mr.  Webster  which  have  found  their  way  into  school 
books;  and  a  democrat  may  say,  1  cannot  go  Mr. 
Webster  ;  my  children  shall  not  be  taught  to  admire 
him.  And  thus,  if  we  are  captious,  we  can  find  con ; 
scientious  scruples  enough.  However,  if  it  is  bona 
fide  a  conscientious  scruple,  there  is  the  end  of  it; 
we  cannot  reason  with  it.  But,  in  the  judgment  of 
the  Common  Council,  and  as  I  think  must  be  the 
case  in  the  judgment  of  every  man,  the  difficulty  is 
got  over  by  the  proposition  which  has  been  made. 

The  next  complaint  is,  that  we  do  not  give  religious 
education  enough.  The  memorials,  all  of  which  are 
public — and  the  speeches  and  documents  which  have 
been  employed,  and  which,  if  necessary,  can  be 
furnished  to  the  committee — all  go  conclusively  to 
demonstrate  that,  in  the  judgment  of  those  who 
spoke  for  tiie  Roman  Catholic  Church,  we  ought  to 
teach  religion  in  our  public  schools — not  generally — 
not  vaguely — not  the  general  truths  of  religion; 
but  that  specific  religious  instruction  must  be  given. 
Now,  I  hardly  suppose  that  this  deficiency  can  be 
made  the  subject  of  conscientious  objection. 

The  third  and  last  complaint  is,  that  our  Catholic 
brethren  cannot  consent  to  have  this  Bible  read  in 
the  hearing  of  their  children.  Now,  on  every  one  of 
these  points,  the  trustees  have  been  disposed  to  go 
as  far  as  they  possibly  could  in  the  way  of  accom- 
modation ;  but  they  never  yet  consented  to  give  up 
the  use  of  the  Bible  to  the  extent  to  which  it  is  used 
in  the  schools.  I  say  the  trustees  have  never  yet 
consented  to  this  surrender.  But  if  they  can  have 
good  authority  for  doing  it,  they  will  do  it. 

If  this  Legislature,  by  its  own  act,  will  direct  that 
the  Bible  shall  be  excluded,  I  will  guarantee  that  it 
shall  be  excluded.  Thus  much  for  these  conscien- 
tious scruples ;  and  having  these  scruples,  the  Ro- 
man Catholics  say  they  cannot  come  in.  They, 
however,  are  in  favour  of  this  bill,  the  outline  of 
which  is  given  in  the  Report  of  the  Secretary.  They 


10 


are  here,  from  the  Catholic  Board  of  Trustees,  in 
strong  force,  to  aid  the  passage  of  some  bill  founded 
on  the  Secretary's  Report.  They  will  be  satisfied 
with  it,  it  will  give  them  what  they  ask.  Now,  let 
us  see  how.  There  is  no  proposition  contained  in 
this  Report  that  religious  societies,  as  such,  shall 
participate  in  this  fund — none.  It  is  too  late  in  the 
day  for  any  man  to  make  that  proposition.  Anxious 
as  the  Secretary  is  to  accommodate  this  matter,  he 
does  not  say  that  religious  societies  shall  participate 
in  the  fund.  But  what  does  he  say?  He  says  that 
the  trustees  of  districts  shall  indicate  what  religion 
shall  be  taught  in  those  schools ;  that  is  to  say,  that 
you  shall  have  small  masses;  that  these  small  mass- 
es shall  elect  their  trustees ;  and  as  the  majority  of 
the  people  in  those  small  masses  may  direct,  so 
shall  be  the  character  of  the  roligious  instruction  im- 
parted. He  assumes  that  there  mustbe  religious  in- 
struction in  the  schools;  that  although  the  law  makes 
no  provision  for  it ;  yet  that  it  is  left  practically  with 
the  people  themselves,  through  their  trustees,  to  in- 
dicate the  religious  instruction  that  shall  be  given.  I 
will  read  what  the  Secretary  says,  at  page  11  of  his 
Report: 

"It  is  by  adopting  the  principle  of  the  organiza- 
tion that  prevails  in  the  other  parts  of  the  State,  which 
Will  leave  such  parents  as  desire  to  exercise  any  con- 
trol over  the  amount  and  description  of  religious  in- 
struction which  shall  be  given  to  their  children,  the 
opportunity  of  doing  so." 

Now,  (continued  Mr.  K.)  let  us  see  how  the  argu- 
ment stands.  The  complainants  here  are  the  Ro- 
man Catholics.  They  cannot  conscientiously  have 
their  children  taught  in  these  schools,  because  reli- 
gious instruction,  in  a  definite  form,  is  not  given,  and 
because  the  Bible  is  read.  But  when  a  school  is  formed 
in  the  sixth  ward  of  the  city  of  New-York,  in  which 
ward  (for  the  sake  of  the  argument  we  will  assume)  the 
Roman  Catholics  have  a  majority  in  the  district ; 
they  choose  their  trustees,  and  these  trustees  indi- 
cate that  a  specific  form  of  religion,  to  wit,  the  Ro- 
man Catholic  religion,  shall  be  taught  in  that  school 
—that  mass  shall  be  said  there — and  that  the  chil- 
dren shall  cross  themselves  with  holy  water  in  the 
school,  having  the  right  to  do  so  according  to  this 
Report,  the  Catholics  being  in  a  majority  there. 
Then,  and  not  till  then,  can  these  Roman  Catholics 
conscientiously  send  their  children  to  school — that  is 
to  say,  their  objections  to  this  system  are  to  be  over- 
come by  having  a  school  to  which  they  can  consci- 
entiously send  their  children;  and  that  school  must 
be  one  in  which  religion  is  to  be  taught  according  to 
their  particular  views.  Now,  suppose  that  in  any 
given  district,  there  should  be  about  500  Roman  Ca- 
tholic children,  and  200  Protestant  children.  These 
Protestant  children  are  compelled  to  worship  ac- 
cording to  the  opinions  of  the  majority — that  is  to 
say,  they  are  compelled  to  be  taught  religion  accord- 
ing to  the  doctrines  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Church. 
I  ask  you,  gentlemen,  if  that  is  not  the  tyranny  of  the 
majority  ?  The  Secretary  admits  that  a  majority  of 
the  people,  in  a  given  district,  has  a  right  to  indicate 
what  religion  shall  be  taught  in  the  district  school ; 
and  to  that  religion,  or  that  form,  whatever  it  may 
be,  the  minority  must  submit.  Thus,  in  a  given  dis- 
trict, the  Protestant  shall  be  taxed  for  the  support  of 
the  Roman  Catholic  religion ;  or,  on  the  other  hand, 
the  Roman  Catholic  shall  be  taxed  for  the  support  of 
definite  Protestant  religion ;  and  thus,  by  abandoning 
the  present  system,  we  are  to  form  and  create  a  sys- 
tem which  will  overcome  the  difficulty.  Is  this  rea- 
soning like  an  American  statesman? 

I  deny  the  Secretary's  proposition.  I  affirm  that 
it  is  false  and  erroneous  from  beginning  to  end.  This 
school  fund  can  never,  under  any  circumstances,  be 
made  use  of,  or  employed  in  teaching  the  particular 


doctrines,  or  particular  dogmas,  of  any  religious  (re- 
nomination.  If  there  were  500  in  one  district,  and1 
but  one  man  in  that  district  that  protested,  he  would 
have  a  clear  right  to  do  so.  He  has  a  right  to  say,  I 
will  not  pay  my  money  to  teach  the  Roman  Catho- 
lic religion — I  will  not  pay  my  money  to  teach  the 
Protestant  religion — 1  will  not  pay  my  money  ttf 
teach  the  doctrines  of  Tom  Paine — I  will  not  pay  my 
money  to  teach  the  doctrine  of  those  who  affirm  that 
my  Saviour  was  an  imposter.  Imagine  a  district  irr 
the  city  of  New- York,  where  there  is  a  majority  of 
persons  of  this  description,  and  where  they  shall 
teach  their  own  doctrines,  (for  if  the  Secretary  is 
right,  these  being  in  the  majority,  have  a  right 
to  teach  what  religion  they  please.)  I  am  supposing1 
an  extreme,  but  possible  case.  Is  this  the  scheme 
by  which  we  are  to  get  over  the  objections  of  those 
who  alone  complain  of  this  system?  No,  sir.  I 
affirm  that  the  religion  taught  in  the  public  schools* 
j  is  precisely  that  quantity  of  religion  which  we  have 
I  a  right  to  teach  \  it  would  be  inconsistent  with  pub- 
j  lie  sentiment  to  teach  less;  it  would  be  illegal  to  teach 
more.  And,  on  this  point,  1  am  happy  to  see  that 
the  Secretary  has  one  passage  in  his  Report  which 
expresses  my  views  most  fully,  and  which  is  couched 
in  much  better  language  than  any  which  I  could  cm- 
ploy.   At  page  9,  he  says  : 

"  It  is  very  true  that  the  Government  has  assumed 
only  the  intellectual  education  of  the  children  of  the 
State,  and  has  left  their  moral  and  religious  instruc- 
tion to  be  given  at  the  fireside,  at  the  places  of  public 
j  worship,  and  at  those  institutions  which  the  piety  of 
!  individuals  may  establish  for  the  purpose.    But  it  is 
i  believed  that  in  a  country  where  the  great  body  of 
j  our  fellow-citizens  recognize  the  fundamental  truths 
j  of  Christianity,  public  sentiment  would  be  shocked  by 
j  the  attempt  to  exclude  all  instruction  of  a  religious 
j  nature  from  the  public  schools :  and  that  any  plan 
|  or  scheme  of  education,  in  which  no  reference  what- 
|  ever  was  had  to  mora)  principles  founded  on  these 
j  truths,  would  be  abandoned  by  all.   In  the  next 
j  place,  it  is  believed  such  an  attempt  would  be  wholly 
impracticable.   No  books  can  be  found,  no  reading 
lessons  can  be  selected,  which  do  not  contain  more 
or  less  of  some  principles  of  religious  faith,  either 
directly  avowed,  or  indirectly  assumed.  Religion- 
and  literature  have  become  inseparably  interwoven, 
and  the  expurgation  of  religious  sentiments  from  the 
productions  of  orators,  essayists  and  poets,  would' 
leave  them  utterly  barren." 

Now  (continued  Mr.  K.,)  we  have  a  right  to  say/ 
this.  When  the  late  head  of  this  nation,  (so  suddenly, 
under  the  Providence  of  God,  taken  from  us,)  de- 
clared, as  others,  his  predecessors,  had  declared  be- 
fore him,  that  he  bore  his  testimony  in  favor  of  the 
Christian  religion,  as  received  in  this  laud,  he  spoke 
as  the  representative  of  the  American  people.  I  am 
proud  to  say  here,  as  an  American,  that  there  is  no 
party  in  that :  that,  whatever  difference  of  opinion 
might  have  existed  politically  as  to  the  merits  of  thaf 
distinguished  man,  the  sentiment  thus  uttered  by 
him  was  an  American  sentiment,  which  will  be  re- 
sponded to  by  a  vast  majority  of  the  people  of  this 
country — for,  thank  God,  this  is  a  Christian  land. 

We  belong  to  different  denominations  ;■  indeed,  we 
are  Episcopalians — we  are  Roman  Catholics— we 
are  Baptists — we  are  Methodists  ;  but  there  are  great 
truths  of  Christianity  which,  as  a  people,  we  coin* 
cide  in.  And  although  the  law  cannot  point  out  pre- 
cisely what  those  principles  are.  yet  we  can  all  feet 
them  and  judge  of  them.  We  haVe  a  right  to  teach 
our  children,  as  we  do  teach  them,  that  there  is  a 
God  whose  eye  sees  us— whopenetratesthe  thoughts 
of  our  hearts— and  that  we  are  accountable  being?. 
We  have  a  right  to  inculcate  these  great  religious 
principles,  as  the  sanctions  of  that  morality  which* 


11 


we  are  bound  to  see  enforced  in  these  schools.  The 
Legislature  has  nothing  to  do  with  religion  specifi- 
cally; but  so  far  as,  by  common  consent,  religion 
mingles  itself  with  the  approved  literature  of  the 
country — and  so  far  as  it  deals  with  great  general 
principles  from  which  morality  derives  its  sanctions, 
the  Legislature,  and  the  schools,  and  every  one  under 
the  patronage  of  this  Government,  has  a  right  to 
recognize  it. 

Beyond  that,  no  such  right  exists:  because  the 
moment  you  go  beyond  that — you  trample  upon  the 
conscience  of  this  or  that  man,  whose  conscience 
you  are  bound  to  respect.  But  these  general  princi- 
ples, as  properly  stated  here,  must  be  recognized  and 
are  recognized  in  this  land.  In  the  schools  we  go 
thus  far  :  we  neither  say  nor  do  any  thing  to  inter- 
fere with  the  peculiar  sentiments  of  any  sect  or  de- 
nomination. Our  trustees  are,  and  always  heve  been, 
composed  of  persons  of  all  denominations.  We  have 
had,  in  our  number,  more  than  one  excellent  Roman 
Catholic,  from  time  to  time.  We  have  had  Episco- 
palians; we  have  had  Baptists ;  we  have  had  Uni- 
versalists ;  we  have  had  respectable  men  of  all 
sects — men  who  are  willing  to  devote  themselves, 
without  fee  or  reward,  to  the  service  of  their  fellow- 
men.  Precisely  that  amount  of  religion  which  would 
be  approved  and  taught  by  a  board  thus  constituted — 
that,  I  say,  and  these  general  truths  only,  have  we  a 
right  to  teach  in  institutions  under  the  direction  of  the 
Legislature. 

The  next  objection  to  this  system, as  a  system,  and 
this  is  not  an  objection  to  existing  schools— is,  that 
it  does  not  reach  all  the  children  who  are  the  proper 
subjects  of  a  gratuitous  education.  And  here  I  will 
take  leave  to  read  an  extract  from  the  report  of  the 
Secretary,  at  page  16.    He  says: 

"  Considering  the  various  feelings  and  interests 
that  would  be  called  into  action  by  such  a  system, 
there  can  be  little  doubt,  that  one  oi  its  immediate 
effects  would  be  to  bring  into  the  schools  a  large 
portion,  if  not  the  whole,  of  those  who  are  now 
utterly  destitute  of  instruction.  With  all  the  com- 
mendable and  vigorous  efforts  of  the  trustees  of  the 
Public  School  Society,  it  cannot  be  denied  that  less 
than  one-half  the  children,  between  four  and  sixteen 
years  of  age,  in  the  cdy  of  New- York,  are  receiving 
the  benefits  of  any  education  whatever.  From  the 
statements  in  the  annual  report  of  the  Superintendent 
of  Common  Schools  for  the  present  year,  (Assembly 
Document  No.  100,)  it  appears  that  the  whole  num- 
ber of  white  children  in  New-York  in  1840,  over  5 
and  under  16  years  of  age,  was  62,952.  and  that 
30,753  only  are  returned  as  attending  some  school, 
leaving  32,194  who  were  not  in  attendance  on  any 
school  whatever." 

Now,  (continued  Mr.  K.,)  I  grant  most  freely  that 
if  there  is  this  number  of  children  in  the  city  of  New- 
York  who  do  not  attend  the  schools  on  account  of 
the  defects  in  the  system,  the  system  ought  -fo  be 
either  amended  or  improved,  or  if  not  susceptible  of 
amendment,  abolished,  and  a  new  system  substitu- 
ted. But  let  us  for  a  moment  inquire  into  this  mat- 
ter. There  is  some  mistake  in  this  census  calcula- 
tion. There  must  necessarily  be  a  mistake,  because 
it  makes  out  the  number  of  32,194  children  who  are 
not  in  attendance  on  any  school  whatever.  We  re- 
port the  number  of  children  on  our  books  for  the  last 
year,  at  23,000;  and  it  is  staled  by  the  Roman  Ca- 
tholics that  tliere  are  about  8,000  in  their  schools; 
making  an  aggregate  of  31,000;  in  the  public  and 
Roman  Catholic  schools.  Deduct  this  from  the  ag- 
gregate census  number,  and  the  number  remaining 
is  31,952.  From  this  number  no  deduction  is  made 
for  the  children  attending  pay  schools  in  the  city, 
this  number  is  large  in  the  ward  in  which  I  reside, 
(Jth)  I  have  heard  a  computation  made  that  there 


are  over  one  thousand  pay  scholars  in  this  single 
ward — although  this  is  more  than  the  average  in  all 
the  wards.  There  must,  therefore,  be  some  mistake  ? 
the  fact  cannot  be  as  it  is  here  represented.  I  doubt 
whether  the  persons  who  took  the  census,  were  re^ 
markably  accurate  or  particular  in  obtaining  infor- 
mation respecting  the  attendance  of  children  on 
schools. 

Error  there  manifestly  is,  somewhere.  Upon  it 
given  day  many  children  may  not  have  been  at 
school.  There  may  have  been  a  vast  number  of 
these  children  actually  attending  school,  and  yet 
who  were  absent  on  that  particular  day. 

The  difference  between  the  number  of  those  who 
actually  attend  our  schools,  and  the  number  on  the 
register,  is  twenty  per  cent. ;  that  is  to  say,  twenty 
children  out  of  one  hundi  ed  do  not  attend  the  schools 
daily.  These  children  may  be  taken  from  school  by 
their  parents  for  various  reasons ;  they  may  be 
wanted,  in  the  season,  to  sell  radishes,  or  for  one 
operation  or  another,  by  which  their  parents  can 
realize  a  little  profit  from  their  labor  ;  and  thus,  at  a 
given  time,  there  may  not  be  more  than  two  thirds 
of  the  twenty-three  thousand  chddren  above  named 
in  actual  attendance.  If,  then,  the  inquiry  is  made 
on  a  given  day,  what  is  the  number  of  children  who 
go  to  school  to-day,  the  answer  would  be  given  in 
that  form  ;  and,  therefore,  you  cannot  thus  arrive  at 
just  conclusions  as  to  how  many  children  are  ede- 
cated ;  and  how  many  are  left  uneducated.  The  in- 
quiry is  supposed  to  be  how  many  children  attend 
school  1  Many  parents  will  not  send  their  children 
when  under  six  years ;  and  after  that  age,  many  of 
them  are  not  kept  at  school  more  than  three  or  four 
years.  By  the  time  they  are  ten  or  twelve  years  old, 
they  will  have  acquired  a  knowledge  of  reading,  wri- 
ting and  cyphering— and  other  branches  of  educa- 
tion, which,  their  parents  think,  is  all  that  is  needed 
to  prepare  them  for  some  employment.  Therefore, 
there  may  be  many  children  between  five  and  six, 
not  sent  to  school ;  and  there  are  many  between  that 
age  and  the  age  of  ten  or  twelve,  who  have  received 
what  is  supposed  by  their  friends  to  be  a  competent 
education ;  and  a  vast  number  between  12  and  16  are 
taken  out,  because,  before  the  latter  age,  they  can  be 
made  the  instruments  of  profit  to  their  parents.  So 
that,  in  this  calculation,  you  do  not  arrive  at  a  result 
which  shows  you  the  number  of  children  actually 
left  uneducated.  It  is  difficult  to  decide  this  point. 
The  Public  School  Society  made  an  investigation 
into  the  subject,  with  a  view  of  making  an  applica- 
tion to  the  people  for  an  additional  lax  ;  this,  I  think, 
was  in  the  year  1829,  when  the  population  of  the 
city  of  i\ew-York  was  about  two  hundred  thousand. 
They  made  the  investigation  in  the  best  manner  they 
could,  and  arrived  at  tne  conclusion  that  there  were 
about  ten  thousand  children  in  the  city  who  did  not 
attend  school. 

The  Chairman  of  the  Committee  here  made  the 
following  inquiry : 

In  these  33,000  thus  returned,  are  there  any  re- 
turns of  children  at  select  schools,  or  boarding 
sohools? 

Mr.  Ketchum.    Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  The  number,  then,  includes  those 
who  are  returned  from  your  society,  and  are  returned 
from  other  societies. 

Question  by  Mr.  Verplanck.  In  this  23,000  who 
are  educated  at  the  public  schools  in  New-York,  are 
not  children  of  ages  between  four  and  five  years  in- 
cluded 1 

Mr.  Ketchum.  The  city  of  New- York  limits  the 
age  of  children  to  between  four  and  sixteen. 

Mr.  Verpianck.  Therefore,  there  must  be  a  num- 
ber of  children  under  five  years  not  educated. 

Mr.  Ketchum  here  stated,  that  there  was  a  gentle-- 


12 


man  present  (Mr.  Seton)  who  had  in  his  possession 
all  the  statistical  information  requisite  to  answer  any 
inquiries  that  might  be  put  That  gentleman  had 
long  been  a  visiter  engaged  in  the  service  of  these 
schools.  He  was  more  intimately  acquainted  with 
all  the  details  than  he  (Mr.  K  )  could  be,  and  would 
be  happy  to  answer  all  inquiries.  He  had,  indeed, 
come  here  for  that  purpose. 

Mr.  K.  then  proceeded  in  his  argument,  as  follows : 
Well,  now,  here  is  shown  to  be  a  large  non-attend- 
ance. There  is  no  doubt  of  the  fact;  we  cannot 
deny  it,  and  we  do  not  wish  to  deny  it.  But  does 
this  non-attendance  result  from  this  system  ?  I  say 
not.  There  is  no  non-attendance  save  from  the 
children  of  our  Roman  Catholic  fellow  citizens,  that 
can  be  pointed  out  on  account  of  prejudice  against 
the  schools.  There  is  non-attendance,  as  you  will  be 
told  by  gentleman  of  great  practical  knowledge  on 
the  subject,  because  parents  will  not  send  their  chil- 
dren to  school,  or  because  the  children  will  not  go. 
There  is  a  want  of  parental  authority  which  leaves 
the  children  to  say  they  will  not  go,  and  hence  they 
grow  up  in  idle  and  vagrant  habits  They  would  not 
go  to  any  other  school  sooner  than  to  this.  The  objec- 
tion is  not  to  the  school  itself,  but  to  the  confinement. 
They  will  not  go  to  school,  and  they  cannot  be  made 
to  go.  What  can  we  do  ?  Ttie  gentleman  upon 
my  left  (Mr.  Seton)  was  employed  many  years 
in  visiting;  in  g  ing  round  from  house  to  house 
for  the  purpose  of  inducing  children  to  come 
in.  We  have  now  thirteen  gentlemen  em- 
ployed to  visit  one  day  in  each  week,  from  house 
to  house,  to  induce  and  persuade  these  children  to 
come  in — to  overcome  objections  and  to  get  them  in. 
That  matter  is  under  the  charge  of  a  Committee  of 
the  Board,  and  the  result  of  their  experience  has  been 
given.  I  believe  that  their  exertions  during  the  last 
year,  were  the  means  of  getting  in  about  nine  hun- 
dred children  ;  but  of  this  number,  from  the  want  of 
parental  control,  a  small  portion  only  remained  more 
than  a  short  time.  Now,  what  system  could  bring 
in  these  children  to  a  greater  extent?  There  is  no 
prejudice  against  the  schools  :  there  cannot  be  any. 
No  one  who  visits  the  schools,  and  who  observes 
the  cheerfulness  and  the  happiness  which  there  pre- 
vails, can  fail  to  see  that  there  is  not  any  ground  of 
prejudice;  you  cannot  have  more  attractive  schools 
than  these.  But  the  great  difficulty  is  that  the  chil- 
dren will  not  be  persuaded  to  come;  nothing  but 
legal  provision  can  make  them,  and,  probably,  we 
are  not  prepared  for  a  resort  to  force.  But  our  Com- 
mon Council  have  been  very  accommodating  on  this 
subject;  they  havegone  hand  in  hand  with  thePub- 
lic  School  Society — they  have  acted  on  the  most 
friendly  terms,  and,  on  one  occasion,  they  passed  an 
ordinance,  (how  long  it  remained  in  force  I  cannot 
say,)  provid.ng  that  parents  who  did  not  send  their 
children  to  some  school,  should  not  receive  bounty,  in 
the  winter  season,  from  the  alms-house.  That  mode 
has  been  resorted  to.  There  has  been  perfect  co-ope- 
ration between  the  two  bodies;  yet,  notwithstanding 
this,  and  all  other  attempts,  there  are  children  whom 
we  could  accommodate  and  who  do  not  come;  but 
I  am  bound  to  say,  that  our  accommodations  in  some 
parts  of  the  city  are  not  such  as  will  allow  all  to  par- 
take of  the  benefits  of  the  schools.  That  is  no  lault 
in  the  system  ;  but  arises  from  the  fact  that  the  sys- 
tem itself  is  not  carried  out  to  the  extent  it  ought  to 
be.  1  believe  that  the  trustees  of  the  society  have 
asked  the  Legislature"  to  help  thetn  to  funds,  to  ena- 
ble tharn  to  build  additional  school-houses.  Our  great 
difficulty  arises  from  the  cost  of  school-houses,  and 
the  purchase  of  lots ;  for,  as  you,  gentlemen,  well 
know,  there  is  a  great  difference  between  the  cost  of 
a  lot  of  land  in  the  city  and  a  lot  in  the  country. 
The  amount  of  money  which  would  be  required  in 


the  city  of  New-York,  for  the  purchase  of  a  lot  or 
lots  of  land  proper  for  the  erection  of  a  building,  (to 
be  three  stories  high  with  a  basement,)  which  would 
accommodate  our  children  under  the  Lancasterian 
system,  and  in  which  five  or  six  hundred  are  edu- 
cated, would  be  as  much  as  all  the  school-houses  in 
a  single  county,  and  the  lots  too,  would  cost  in  the 
country.  The  great  difficulty  lies  in  getting  the 
money.  We  have  asked  aid,  and  we  shall  undoubt- 
edly have  to  ask  aid  a<iain  to  enable  us  to  build 
school-houses.  In  this  way  we  could  accommodate 
more  children,  and  could  get  more  to  attend.  But 
this,  gentlemen  will  at  once  perceive,  is  not  the  fault 
of  the  system,  but  results  from  the  fact  that  we  are 
not  able  to  carry  it  out  to  the  extent  necessary.  I 
have  not  considered  this  last  point  as  fully  as  I  could 
otherwise  have  wished,  because  the  figures  and  state- 
ments of  those  who  are  personally  acquainted  with 
it,  will  be  at  the  service  of  the  committee.  And  the 
committee  will  no  doubt  prefer  to  have  the  informa- 
tion directly  from  that  source.  I  have  thus  consid- 
ered the  objections,  not  to  the  principle,  but  to  the 
actual  operation  of  this  system. 

I  come  now  to  consider  the  objections  to  the  prin- 
ciples as  set  forth  in  these  memorials.  What  are 
they?  They  represent,  in  the  first  place,  that  the 
original  intention  of  the  enactment  which  gave  this 
fund  to  the  common  council,  was"  to  enable  every 
school  which  should  comply  with  the  requirements 
of  the  statute,  to  share  in  the  common  school  fund." 

That  is  an  assertion,  (continued  Mr.  K.,)  from 
which,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  I  dissent.  I  have  said 
before,  I  was  here  at  the  time  the  act  was  passed. 
Gentlemen  of  the  committee  can  only  judge  of  the 
intention  from  the  act  itself;  but  1  believe  I  know 
pretty  well  what  the  intention  of  the  Legislature  was 
on  the  points  i  hat  were  mooted  ;  and  I  am  persuaded 
that  the  Legislature  intended  to  give  full  power  to  the 
corporation  of  the  city  of  New- York  to  distribute 
this  money  among  such  institutions  as  they  should 
select.  The  corporotion  had  the  right  to  adopt  or 
reject  any  of  these  institutions. 

The  memorialists  say  that  "it  is  dangerous  and 
detrimental  to  the  public  interests,  to  pour  into  the 
coffers  of  this  institution  the  public  money,  its 
influence  and  authority,  while  it  is  wanting  in  that 
high  and  requisite  attribute  of  a  public  agent — re- 
sponsibility to  the  people." 

I  Now  I  admit,  that  although  no  evils  have  yet,  in 
practice,  resulted  from  the  operations  of  tiiis  society, 
although  the  evil  tendencies  which  are  charged  upon 
it,  have  not,  after  a  lapse  of  thirty  years  developed 
themselves — yet  if  the  mode  of  employing  the  school 
fund  contains  within  itself  a  principle  which  is  un- 

I  sound,  which  is  inconsistent  with  our  institutions, 
which  is  inconsistent  with  the  spirit  of  the  law  and 
the  constitution  under  which  we  live— I  admit  that 
the  Legislature  is  bound  to  correct  that  principle.  It 
is  stated  here,  that  nearly  the  whole  education  of  the 
poor  of  the  city  of  New-York,  is  under  the  control 
of  this  society.  I  refer  to  page  1  of  the  Secretary's 
Report,  where  it  is  said  (as  part  of  the  substance  of 
the  memorials ;)  "  That  this  society,  being  a  corpora- 
tion, has  acquired  the  entire  control  of  the  system  of 
public  education  ;  that  the  tax  payers  who  con- 
tribute to  the  fund,  have  no  voice  in  the  selection  of 
those  who  administer  the  system,  or  control  over 
the  application  of  the  public  monies." 

And,  at  page  11,  the  Secretary  says:  "The  prac- 
tical operation  of  the  school  laws  is,  to  constitute  the 
trustees  of  the  public  school  society,  the  officers  and 
agents  of  the  government  in  the  administration  of 
the  system  of  primary  instruction  in  that  city.  That 
society  in  effect,  engrosses  the  public  education  of 
the  city  ;  and,  instead  of  operating  on  small  masses, 
as  in  the  interior,  embraces  the  whole." 


13 


Now  (said  Mr.  K.)  let  us  consider  these  assertions. 
Is  it  true  that,  in  the  proper  sense  of  the  term,  all 
education  in  the  city  of  New-York  is  under  the  con- 
trol of  the  public  school  society.  How,  from  what 
source,  does  the  public  school  society  receive  the 
funds  by  which  alone  they  maintain  these  schools 
from  day  to  day  ?  From  the  hands  of  the  corpora- 
tion of  the  city  of  New -York— from  the  hands  of 
the  representatives  of  the  people  chosen  at  tht 
ballot-boxes.  They  have  a  right  to  indicate  the  in* 
stitution  and  the  schools  that  shall  receive  this  fund 
and  to  impose  what  restrictions  they  please.  This 
public  school  society  receives  its  daily  sustenance 
from  the  representatives  of  the  people — and  the 
moment  that  sustenance  is  withdrawn,  it  dies — it 
cannot  carry  on  its  operations  for  a  day. 

How  is  this  matter  guarded  1  Here  is  a  Corpora- 
tion chosen  by  the  people.  The  law  provides  that 
this  Corporation  shall  appoint  one  school  commis- 
sioner for  each  ward,  upon  whom  it  imposes  the 
duty  of  visiting,  examining,  and  inspecting,  every  one 
of  the  schools  participating  in  the  school  fund.  It  is 
made  their  duty,  twice  at  least  in  a  year,  to  visit  the 
schools  ;  and  it  Is  also  made  their  duty  to  report  to 
the  Corporation;  and  the  society  is  bound  yearly  to 
report  to  the  Corporation  and  to  the  Legislature; 
the  members  of  the  Corporation  themselves  are  ex 
officio  members  of  the  society,  and  the  Mayor  and 
Recorder  are  ex  o-fficio  members  of  the  Board  of 
Trustees.  This  society  or  corporation,  called  the 
Public  School  Society,  is  the  almoner  of  this  pubiic 
bounty;  for  although  it  was  originally  designed  for 
those  who  were  the  proper  subjects  of  a  gratuitous 
education  exclusively,  yet  it  is  not  now  thus  restrict- 
ed. But  now  those  who  participate  in  this  fund  are 
mainly  such  as  are  the  proper  subjects  of  gratuitous 
education.  These  agents  of  the  people— first,  the 
Corporation,  and,  secondly,  the  School  Commis- 
sioners, are  to  supervise,  and  direct,  and  control,  and 
give  daily  bread  to  the  Public  School  Society,  whom 
they  make  their  almoner  to  do  this  work  under  their 
eye.  Now,  what  sound  principle  is  violated  here  ? 
What  principle  of  republicanism  dear  to  the  heart  of 
any  man  is  violated  by  this? 

Here  are  agents  of  the  people— men  who,  having  a 
desire  to  serve  mankind,  associate  together;  they 
offer  to  take  the  superintendence  of  particular  works, 
they  offer  themselves  to  the  public  as  agents  to 
carry  out  certain  benevolent  purposes;  and,  instead 
of  paying  men  for  the  labor,  they  volunteer  to  do  it 
for  you,  "  without  money  and  without  price,"  under 
your  directions— to  do  it  as  your  servants — and  to 
give  an  account  to  you  and  an  account  to  the  Legis- 
lature. Again  then,  I  ask,  what  principle  is  violated  ? 
Mr.  Chairman  ;  voluntary  public  service  is  always 
more  efficient  than  labor  done  by  servants  chosen  in 
any  other  \  ay.  I  resort  to  the  experience  of  tjiis 
Society,  and  to  the  experience  of  all  other  kindred 
societies,  to  demonstrate  the  truth  of  this  assertion  ; 
and  I  say  that  all  that  experience  will  demonstrate, 
that  public  objects  are  better  accomplished  by  these 
voluntary  servants,  than  they  are  usually  accom- 
plished by  persons  chosen  directly  by  the  people; 
not,  however,  independent  of  the  people— far  other- 
wise ;  but  agents  acting  as  the  voluntary  servants  of 
the  people,  under  the  direction  of  the  people,  for  the 
accomplishments  of  objects  dear  to  the  people.  The 
Secretary  tells  you  that,  since  the  year  1813,  there 
has  been  expended  the  sum  of  one  million  of  dollars. 
If  the  fact  is  so,  and  I  have  no  doubt  that  the  Secre- 
tary states  it  upon  authority,  he  should  have  accom- 
panied it  with  the  information  that,  in  the  expendi- 
ture of  this  money,  not  a  single  cent  has  been  found 
deficient.  He  ought  to  have  stated,  and  would,  I 
have  no  doubt,  if  it  had  occurred  to  him  at  the  mo- 
ment;   when  he  paraded  here,  or  stated  here, 


this  sum  of  one  million  dollars  which  the  society 
had  expended  since  the  year  1813 — he  ought,  I  say, 
to  have  added  that,  like  faithful  servants,  the  society 
had  accounted  for  every  cent;  because  the  reports 
on  the  files  in  his  own  office  will  show  that  such  an 
account  has  been  given.  Now,  Mr.  Chairman,  I 
submit  that  the  real  question  which,  as  citizens,  we 
ought  to  discuss  is,  not  what  prejudice  we  shall  ap- 
peal to  on  this  side  or  that,  but  in  what  way  will  you 
have  a  great  public  duty  performed  in  the 
best  manner?  Will  you  have  it  done  by  volun- 
teers who,  from  the  experience  of  thirty  years, 
have  proved  themselves  faithful,  honest,  and  ef- 
ficient, and  who,  during  the  last  year,  according  to 
a  report  now  on  the  files,  themselves  visited  the 
schools  eleven  thousand  times  ?  Point  out  to  me 
your  School  Commissioners  who,  receiving  pay, 
have  done  such  service.  Again,  I  ask,  is  not  the 
question  really  how  you  will  have  this  duty  best 
performed?  In  sparse  populations,  most  men  are 
occupied,  and  cannot  volunteer  for  a  service  of  this 
kind;— they  have  not.  the  leisure  ;  it  is  too  trouble- 
some; but  in  large  cities,  in  this  city  probably,  and  in 
the  city  of  New- York,  there  always  will  be  a 
class  of  men,  having  leisure  and  full  of  benevolent 
feelings,  who  may  not  wish  to  mingle  in  the  con- 
tests of  politics,  or  of  public  life  in  any  manner, 
but  who  desire  to  devote  themselves  to  some  good 
and  benevolent  object  that  may  be  effective,  and  in 
a  quiet  way  accomplish  something  for  the  benefit 
of  mankind.  Will  you  as  wise  men,  say  we  shall 
avail  ourselves  of  these  voluntary  services,  or  shall 
we  mingle  every  thing  in  the  turmoil  of  politics,.? 
Will  you  say  that  every  thing  shall  be  discussed, 
on  party  principles  ;  and  will  you  have  the  ques- 
tion discussed  at  the  polls  whether  this  man  or 
that  man  is  a  whig  or  a  democrat,  so  that  the  Trus- 
tees may  be  chosen  according  to  their  politics  ?  It 
has  not  yet  come  to  that  here,  but  in  Philadelphia  I 
am  informed  party  politics  have  reached  the  Su- 
perintendents of  Common  Schools;  and,  by  and 
by,  the  politics  of  the  teachers  will  be  inquired  in- 
to before  they  can  be  elected.  Do  you  desire  to 
bring  every  thing  within  this  angry  vortex  ?  Is 
it  wise?  Is  it  judicious?  Is  it  conscientious? 
Can  we  not  let  this  well  enough  alone  ? 

Why,  I  ask,  when  you  can  avail  yourselves  of 
such  services — when  there  are  men  who  love  to 
serve  you  in  this  way,  why  will  you  not  accept 
their  services  ?  Is  there  any  danger  to  democratic 
principles  in  this  ?  What  is  your  hospital,  but  a 
corporation  acting  as  almoners  of  charity  ?  What 
is  your  house  of  refuge  ?  I  can  speak  understand- 
ing^ about  it,  for  I  was  connected  with,  and  of  it, 
from  the  start  ?  Benevolent  men  looked  abroad 
over  that  great  city  and  saw  children  taken  up  for 
crimes,  associated  with  felons,  and  there  joined 
with  the  school  of  vice  to  be  made  perfect  in  its 
tortuous  ways,  without  redemption  or  hope  of  re- 
demption. Their  hearts  bled  over  the  spectacle; 
and  they  met  together  and  consulted  as  to  what 
could  be  done.  They  held  a  public  meeting  and 
took  up  a  subscription,  amounting,  on  that  night 
only,  to  the  sum  of  sixteen  hundred  dollars.  In 
less  than  three  months  this  sum  of  sixteen  hundred 
dollars  was  increased  by  voluntary  contributions, 
to  the  sum  of  sixteen  thousand.  And  then  what 
did  they  say  ?  We  cannot  get  on  this  matter  ;  we 
cannot  carry  out  our  benevolent  object  of  taking 
these  young  culprits,  who,  if  left  to  the  law,  are 
certain  to  occupy  our  bridewells  and  our  houses  of 
correction,  we  cannot  do  any  thing  for  them  with- 
out corporate  powers ;  and  we  must,  therefore,  ask 


14 


the  Legislature  to  give  us  a  part  of  the  sovereign 
power  of  the  state. 

We  came  to  the  Legislature,  and  the  Legisla- 
ture gave  us  a  part  of  the  sovereign  power.  They 
are  now  a  corporation  of  which,  if  any  of  you 
were  in  a  foreign  land,  you  would  be  proud  and 
happy  to  boast;  it  is  one  of  the  jewels  of  the  coun- 
try. It  has  gone  on  ;  it  has  received  the  bounty  of 
this  Legislature  ;  it  has  received  from  it  its  daily 
bread  and  support,  and  yet  the  directors  are  not 
chosen  by  the  people.  They  are  chosen  by  their 
associates,  and  experience  proves  that  it  is  a  good 
mode  of  carrying  out  the  contemplated  objects, 
and  yet,  if  we  are  to  have  this  doctrine  all  at  once 
established  that  nothing  is  consistent  with  republi- 
cism  or  democracy  that  doss  not  comedirectly  from 
the  people,  the  House  of  Refuge  must  be  destroyed, 
we  must  next  have  the  schoolmaster  elected  by  the 
people.  Sir,  let  us  act  like  men  of  sense  ;  we  must 
use  the  advantages  we  have,  and  keep  our  eye 
steadily  upon  the  great  end  we  have  in  view,—  to 
wit,  the  amelioration  of  society,  the  education  of 
the  children  of  the  state — and  it  is  surely  wise  to 
employ  the  best  means  we  have  for  the  accomplish- 
ment of  this  object. 

Look  at  the  institution  for  the  blind :  look  at  the 
institution  for  the  deaf  and  dumb.  The  name  is 
legion  of  those  associations  and  corporations,  com- 
posed of  philanthropic  individuals,  to  which  apart 
of  the  power  of  the  people  is  granted.  I  would 
not  enter  the  arena  here  to  declaim  against,  or  to 
advocate  corporations.  I  have  nothing  to  say 
about  monied  corporations:  I  have  nothing  to  say 
as  to  the  cry  against  those  corporations,  whether  it 
is  right  or  wrong,  that  is  not  the  question  ;  but  I 
am  here  to  contend  that  men  have  the  right,  and 
that  it  is  their  duty  to  associate  together,  and  that 
jf  they  cannot  carry  out  the  objects  of  their  associ- 
ation without  corporate  powers,  it  is  wise  and 
proper,  that  the  legislature  should  impart  those 
powers.  Your  churches,  your  every  thing  -which 
.comforts,  and  heals,  and  blesses  the  land,  are  in  this 
gense  corporations,  and  the  Public  School  Society 
is  among  the  number. 

But  it  is  said  that  one  million  of  dollars  have 
been  expended.  Well,  now,  in  shaking  of  the 
manner  in  which  this  money  has  r  cen  appropriated, 
£he  Secretary  might  have  shown,  if  he  had  en- 
quired or  looked  into  the  reports,  that  about  three 
hundred  thousand  dollars  of  the  amount  is  in  pro- 
perty now  held  for  the  purposes  of  common  school 
education;  consisting  of  buildings  and  other  pro- 
perty, in  real  and  personal  estate.  It  may  be  said 
that  it  is  dangerous  for  a  corporation  like  this  to 
hold  a  large  amount  of  property.  If  the  commit- 
tee please,  this  is  a  danger  of  which  the  society 
lias  been  sensible,  and  years  ago  (as  the  record  on 
their  minutes  will  shew)  they  offered  to  deed  all 
this  property  to  the  Common  Council,  and  to  take 
a  lease  from  them,  to  use  it  for  special  purposes  of 
education.  The  society  is  willing  at  this  moment 
to  execute  such  a  deed,  but  the  Corporation  of  the 
city  of  New-York  have  uniformly  said  :  i  Gentle- 
men you  manage  your  property  better  than  we 
manage  ours."  We  have  business  enough — keep 
it.  We  have  pressed  the  matter  upon  them.  It  is 
now  an  offer  before  them  which  they  can  accept  at 
any  time.  But  the  confidence  which  that  corpora- 
tion, from  year  to  year,  and  without  respect  to  the 
politics  of  the  members  composing  it,  has  had  in 
£his  institution,  has  induced  them  not  to  accept  the 


offer.  And,  1  am  here  on  the  part  of  the  Society, 
to  say,  that  they  are  willing  to  submit  to  any  le- 
gislation or  restriction  upon  this  subject,  which, 
upon  consultation,  shall  be  deemed  wise  and  bene- 
ficial, and  calculated  to  promote  and  secure  the 
grand  object  of  universal  common  school  education. 
This  is  a  matter  about  which  there  can  be  no  diffi- 
culty;  and  if  the  Secretary  of  State,  or  if  this  com- 
mittee will  sit  down  with  a  committee  of  the  board, 
and  regulate  this  matter,  it  can  be  put  in  the  same 
shape  (whatever  that  may  be,  and  I  do  not  precise- 
ly know  what  it  is)  as  the  asylum  for  the  blind,  the 
asylum  for  the  insane,  or  any  other  institution, 
having  buildings  or  property,  towards  the  pur- 
chase or  erection  of  which  the  state  has  contributed. 

I  do  not  know  how  the  property  of  these  insti- 
utions  is  fixed  or  held,  but  any  mode  which  the  le- 
gislature or  the  Corporation  of  the  city  of  New- 
York  may  designate,  and  which  is  applied  to  other 
institutions  for  kindred  objects,  will  be  acquiesced 
in  by  the  Public  School  Society. 

I  have  spoken  of  the  fact,  that  there  have  been 
no  objections  made  to  the  schools ;  but  if  there  are 
dsngers  to  be  apprehended,  it  is  wise  in  the  Super- 
intendent to  discern  them  from  afar.  He  stands  as 
a  sentinel  on  the  watch-tower,  and  it  is  his  duty  to 
look  ahead  and  to  see  what  danger  may  come. 
I  have  spoken  of  the  consequences  which  may  pos- 
sibly grow  out  of  the  system,  but  I  repeat  that  as 
yet  nothing  of  an  injurious  character  has  been  dis- 
covered. There  has  been  no  complaint  made  of 
the  actual  operation  of  the  schools,  but  something 
has  been  said  in  their  favour ;  and,  I  propose  now, 
by  the  leave  of  the  committee,  to  submit  from  pub- 
lic documents  some  of  those  favourable  things 
which  have  been  said. 

The  School  Commissioners  are  a  body  of  men, 
chosen  one  for  each  Ward  by  the  Corporation, 
whose  business  it  is  to  visit  these  Schools  and  re- 
port upon  them.  The  law  of  1824  makes  it  neces- 
sary that  these  School  Commissioners  shall  not 
belong  to  the  Public  School  Society:  the  object  be- 
ing to  have  an  impartial  board.  And,  I  may  say 
of  the  present  School  Commissioners,  that  there 
are  no  gentlemen  more  respectable,  and  these  gentle- 
men were  competent  to  judge  of  such  matters. 
They  do  visit  the  schools,  and  I  will  now  read  a 
short  paragraph  from  their  report  of  July  the  27th, 
1840.  They  say:  "  The  qualifications  and  ef- 
forts of  the  teachers  employed,  and  the  course  of 
literary  instruction  in  the  schools,  continue  to  de- 
serve the  approbation  of  the  Commissioners. — 
Without  intending  to  detract  from  the  acknowl- 
edged merits  of  the  many  worthy  individuals  who 
devote  themselves  to  the  education  of  youth  in  the 
numerous  pay  schools  scattered  throughout  the 
city,  the  Commissioners  may  be  allowed  to  ex- 
press their  belief,  that  generally  the  schools  sup- 
ported from  the  school-money,  will  not,  as  regards 
the  progress  of  the  pupils  in  the  several  branches 
taught  there,  nor  on  the  score  of  legitimate  disci- 
pline, suffer  by  a  comparison  with  any  others  in 
this  metropolis." 

I  have  mentioned  (continued  Mr.  K.)  that  the 
committee  of  the  corporation  of  the  city  of  New- 
York,  when  they  had  this  matter  under  investiga- 
tion, thought  it  their  duty,  before  they  reported,  to 
visit  the  schools;  they  did  so,  and  this  is  what 
they  say.  "  The  different  classes  examined  in  se- 
veral schools  by  your  committee,  exhibited  an  as- 
tonishing   progress  in  geography,  astronomy, 


15 


arithmetic,  reading,  writing,  &c. ;  and  indicated  a 
capacity  in  the  system  for  imparting  instruction 
far  beyond  our  expectations  :  and,  though  the  or- 
der and  arrangement  of  each  school  would  chal- 
lenge comparison  with  a  camp  under  a  rigid  disci- 
plinarian, yet  the  accustomed  buoyancy  and  cheer- 
fulness of  youth  and  childhood,  did  not  appear  to  be 
destroyed  in  any  one  of  them.  Such  were  the  fa- 
vorable impressions  forced  upon  our  minds,  by  a 
careful  examination  of  the  Public  Schools.  It  is 
due  to  the  Trustees  to  add,  that  not  one  of  our  vi- 
sits was  anticipated,  and  no  opportunity  was  af- 
forded to  any  of  the  teachers  for  even  a  momentary 
preparation."  Again  :  "  The  Public  School  build- 
ings are  constructed  upon  a  uniform  model ;  the 
books  used  are  the  same  in  all  the  schools,  and  tha 
classes  and  departments  in  each  are  so  similarly 
constituted  and  provided,  that  the  removal  of  a  pu- 
pil from  one  school  to  another,  will  not  interrupt 
his  studies  or  retard  his  progress. " 

Now  (continued  Mr.  K.)  here  is  an  advantage 
which  those  who  live  in  the  city  of  New- York  un- 
derstand and  appreciate,  and  which  a  system  con- 
templating the  formation  of  schools  by  small  mas- 
ses, never  can  have.  Here  is  a  system  suited  to  a 
migratory  population.  All  the  books,  all  the 
forms,  all  the  lessons,  are  the  same;  and,  if  a  child 
removes  from  one  ward  to  another,  he  can  be  put  in 
the  class  corresponding  to  that  which  he  left,  and 
he  stands  upon  the  same  footing.  The  black  board 
is  the  same,  the  exercises  are  the  same  :  every  one 
fcnows  the  advantage  of  continuing  on  the  same 
course  of  education  which  has  been  begun,  if  itj 
was  judicious  in  the  first  instance.  But  what  does 
this  new  system  contemplate  1  It  contemplates  the 
destruction  of  this  peculiarity ;  and  this  report  of 
the  Secretary  goes  on  to  speak  of  the  advantages 
pf  the  system  pursued  in  the  country.  Gentle- 
mem,  THE  POOREST  CHILD  IN  THE  CITY  OF  NEW- 
YORK  HAS  ADVANTAGES  IN  THE  WAY  QP  EDUCATION, 
OP  ELEMENTARY  EDUCATION,  WHICH  ARE  DENIED  TO 
NINE-TENTHS  OF  THE  SONS  AND  DAUGHTERS  OF  THE 
FARMERS  OF  THE  STATE  OF  NEW-YORK. 

I  challenge  an  investigation  on  this  point;  and  I 
maintain  that  no  committee  of  this,  or  of  the  other 
house,  can  act  understandingly  until  they  have  vi- 
sited these  schools.  They  must  do  as  the  commit- 
tee of  the  Common  Council  did,  go  and  see  for 
themselves.  Why,  then,  should  we  then  change 
h,e  system  T 

But  it  is  said,  and  said  too  in  this  report  of  the 
Secretary,  that  he  proposes  to  retain  these  Public 
Schools.  How  retain  them  1  One  of  the  features 
of  the  proposed  new  law  is,  that  all  school  monies 
?hall  bv.  paid  to  the  teachers.  Under  such  a  Jaw  we 
cannot  live  a  day— not  a  day.  We  have  to  buy  sta- 
tionery and  books— we  have  to  build  school-houses. 
We  have  large  schools,  and  the  surplus,  after  the 
payment  qf  teachers,  goes  to  the  erection  of  school- 
houses,  and  the  purchase  of  books  and  stationery. 
What  do  you  think  is  the  expense  in  the  city  of 
New-York  of  educating  a  child;  not  alone  the 
expense  of;  which  I  have  spoken,  but  of  fur- 
pishing  books,  slates  and  other  stationery, 
and  of  fuel  and  repairs — not  rent— but  repairs  of 
school-houses  1  The  expense  for  one  year  is  less 
than  five  dollars  a  scholar.  For  five  dollars  a 
whole  year,  this  education,  with  all  the  necessary 
stationery,  books,  slates  and  fuel,  is  furnished.  I 
■ay,  if  we  are  only  to  receive  pay  for  our  teachers, 
$re  cannot  exist  a  day. 


|     There  is  another  point.    After  the  passage  of 
|  the  law  of  1824,  upon  an  investigation  made  at  tha 
j  time  as  to  the  condition  of  some  ofthe  destitutet 
•  part  of  our  population,  a  representation  was  made 
by  the  Public  School  Society,  and  after  the  corpo- 
ration had  excluded  religious  societies,  the  Public 
School  Society  exerted  themselves  in  behalf  of  the 
cause  of  education,  and  induced  a  large  number  of 
the  most  considerable  property  holders  of  the  city 
of  New- York,  to  petition  to  be  taxed  for  the  pur- 
pose of  carrying  out  this  system,  and  of  extending 

They  petition  the  Corporation  to  be  taxed.— Sir, 
if  ever  there  was  a  people  borne  down  by  taxes,  it 
is  the  people  of  the  city  of  New-York  who  have 
property,  and  yet,  strange  to  say,  men  who  paid 
from  one  hundred  to  two  thousand  dollars  annual 
taxes,  confiding  in  these  trustees,  and  desirous  of 
carrying  out  this  system  of  education,  under  the 
direction  of  these  trustees,  came  forward  at  their 
instance,  and  prayed  the  corporation  to  tax  them 
more.  A  memorial,  for  which  I  sought  in  vain 
with  a  view  of  bringing  it  here,  but  which  could 
not  be  found — shows  the  names  of  these  petitioners 
—  names  which  will  be  familiar  to  some  of  the 
members  of  this  committee.  Here  you  have  a  per- 
fect anomaly !  You  can  hardly  produce  a  similar 
case  in  any  country.  The  petitioners,  I  say,  came 
l  forward  and  prayed  to  be  taxed,  at  the  instance  of 
the  Public  School  Society,  for  the  purpose  of  carry- 
ing out  the  system : — men  who  could  not  look  to 
secure  any  person  a  benefit, because  theydid  not  send 
their  own  children  to  these  schools.  The  conse- 
quence was,  that  the  tax  was  laid,  and  it  produced 
the  sum  of  $72,000  annually;  only  half  that 
amount,  however,  was  raised  by  our  Common 
Council  last  year  under  that  head. 

Since  (excepting  in  the  year  1840,  as  above  stated) 
this  tax  was  imposed,  it  has  yielded  annually 
the  sum  aforesaid  of  $72,000.  Now,  if  we  are 
to  adopt  this  plan  of  election  by  the  people  ;  if  the 
system  is  to  be  so  extended  as  to  be  made  like  that 
which  prevails  in  the  country,  we  must  ado  pt  the 
whole  and  not  a  part  only  of  that  system ;  wemust 
have  all  if  we  have  any  of  it ;  and  this  sum  of  thir-? 
ty-six  thousand  dollars  thus  raised  by  this  tax, 
must  be  cut  off.  These  petitioners  have  a  right  to 
say,  "  gentlemen,  the  contract  is  violated,  for  al- 
though you  may  anticipate  great  evil  in  trusting 
this  money  to  this  corporation,  yet  it  was  by  reason 
of  our  reliance  upon  this  Public  School  Society  as 
our  almoners,  that  we  asked  to  be  taxed  : — now, 
off  with  the  tax ; — let  us  have  the  system  as  it  is  in 
the  country,  and  see  what  will  become  of  the  Pubr 
ic  Schools,/ 

The  amount  received  from  special  tax  was  dur-r 
ing  the  last  year  36,075  00  dollars,  and  if  we  are 
to  have  the  country  system,  that  tax  is  relinquish- 
ed ;  and  then  the  money  is  to  be  given  out  to  com- 
missioners, for  to  school  districts  in  the  small  mass, 
to  use  the  language  of  this  report;  for  instance,  we 
are  to  have  commissioners  elected  in  each  ward, 
they  are  to  partition  the  ward  out  into  school  dis- 
tricts. These  districts  are  to  elect  Trustees.  If 
there  is  not  money  enough  received  from  the  state, 
and  fund  enough  added  to  that  which  is  laid  by  the 
general  tax,  then  these  small  masses  must  be  taxed 
to  build  up  school  houses  and  to  make  up  the  de- 
ficiency. This  I  understand  to  be  the  operation  of 
the  system  in  the  country.  These  trustees  are  to 
lay  a  tax  (to  make  up  the  deficiency,)  upon  the 


16 


property  holders,  and  in  this  way  we  are  to  have 
small  masses  governed  by  these  trustees.  We  are 
to  have  such  religion  as  the  majority  may  choose, 
and  such  books  as  the  majority  may  choose,  and 
the  whole  of  this  system  which  has  been  so  well 
tried,  and  has  been  productive  of  such  good  fruits, 
is  to  be  exchanged  for  a  new  one.  For  I  maintain 
that  unless  there  is  some  very  special  provision  not 
contemplated  on  the  face  of  this  Report,  the  Public 
School  system  of  the  city  of  New-York  as  now 
constituted,  cannot  stand.  You  must  either  have 
the  system  as  it  is  in  the  country,  or  our  system 
as  it  exists  at  present  in  the  city. 

Now,  is  the  committee  prepared  to  report,  and 
will  the  Senate  be  prepared  to  adopt  such  a  report ; 
one  that  shall  cast  off  this  system  which  has  been 
tried  and  approved,  and  that  we  shall  "  fly  to  some- 
thing that  we  know  not  of  V  Will  they  decide 
that  the  agents  to  whom  the  city  of  New-York 
gave  thie  power  some  sixteen  years  ago,  have  been 
faithless  to  their  trust,  and  that  the  power  shall  be 
restored  to  the  Legislature  1  Will  they  decide  that 
they  have  now  leisure  to  bestow  more  attention  on 
this  subject,  and  to  look  more  into  the  details  than 
their  predecessors  had  1  It  was  an  argument 
which  forced  itself  strongly  on  the  consideration 
of  the  Legislature  of  1824  :  "  We  cannot  under- 
stand this  matter;  it  is  local;  it  is  different  in  some 
respects  from  any  thing  we  have  in  the  country. 
We  Gannot  well  judge  of  it,  and  we  will  leave 
you  to  settle  it  among  yourselves."  But  if  the 
Legislature  of  the  present  day  has  discovered  a 
new  modeof  doing  business,  so  that  it  can  take 
upon  itself  a  little  more  legislation  for  the  city  of 
New-York — very  well:  I  shall  be  glad  to  find  that 
it  is  so.  1  shall  be  glad  to  find  that  this  Legislature 
does  not  feel  the  same  pressure  of  business  that  its 
predecessors  felt  in  1824,  and  that  it  can  enter  into 
these  matters  more  minutely.  We  had  no  disposi- 
tion to  take  the  subject  into  our  hands  then,  and  we 
have  no  disposition  that  the  Legislature  should 
take  it  back  now.  The  people  in  New- York  un- 
derstand the  subject,  and  the  Roman  Catholics 
cannot  say  that  they  will  not  be  heard  as  well 
there  as  here.  Why  not  leave  the  matter  to  us, 
the  people  of  the  city  of  New-York  1    If  you 


choose  to  have  commissioners  elected  by  the  people 
instead  of  being  chosen  by  the  corporation,  I  say 
"Amen;"  very  well;  enlarge  their  powers  if  you 
choose;  have  the  inspections  and  examinations 
more  frequently  if  you  choose,  by  the  agents  of  the 
people,  chosen  by  the  direct  votes  of  the  people. 
But  let  us  not  disturb  a  system  more  healthful,  and 
beautiful,  and  effective,  as  a  system,  than  any  other 
where  the  English  language  is  spoken.  There  is 
nothing  to  be  compared  to  it.  If  it  shall  be  destroy- 
ed— if  our  Catholic  brethren,  of  whom  I  wish  to 
speak  with  great  respect,  have  found  so  powerful 
an  auxiliary  in  the  honorable  Secretary  of  State, 
that  they  shall  be  able  to  carry  out  their  purposes 
here,  and  these  schools  should  in  consequence  be 
destroyed,  that  officer  will  gain  a  renown  which 
will  go  down  through  all  time.  But  I  should  pre- 
fer the  renown  of  him  who  fired  the  Ephesian 
dome  to  that  renown. 

Mr.  Chairman,  the  Public  School  Society  have 
come  here  once  more  to  plead  for  the  seminaries  of 
elementary  instruction  under  their  charge.  Sixteen 
years  gone  by  they  passed  through  one  trying 
scene;  the  contest  was  long,  arduous,  and  severe, 
and  their  hearts  began  to  fail,  and  their  hands  to 
tire,  but  they  succeeded  then.  Now  the  contest  is 
renewed,  and  the  trustees  engage  in  it  with  ex- 
treme reluctance  ;  they  have  no  personal  interests 
to  advance,  and  they  are  very  unwilling  to  be  put 
in  hostile  array  against  any  of  their  feliow  citizens. 
They  are  men  of  peace,  their  ends  and  purposes 
are  all  peaceable;  they  desire  as  servants  of  the 
people,  to  do  some  good  to  the  rising  generation  if 
permitted;  they  are  willing  to  visit  the  schools,to 
foster  them,  to  collect  in  them  the  destitute  and  the 
outcast,  but  they  abhor  controversy.  If  the  Public 
School  Society  shall  be  permitted  to  go  on,  as  in 
former  years  it  has  gone  on,  I  cannot  doubt  there 
will  always  be  found  a  class  of  citizens,  who,  com- 
petent and  efficient,  are  willing  to  volunteer  their 
services  in  advancing  the  cause  of  education,  and 
under  the  careful  and  searching  supervision  of 
agents  chosen  by  the  people,  I  hope  the  trustees 
and  their  successors,  may  be  permitted  for  ages  to 
come,  to  continue  their  benevolent  labors. 


lEx  ICtbrtH 


SEYMOUR  DURST 


